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Author Topic:   Does Evolution Require Spreading The Word?
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 135 (339111)
08-10-2006 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Adequate
08-10-2006 9:36 PM


Gimme that old time assembly
Gimme that old time assembly
Gimme that old time assembly
It's good enough for C!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-10-2006 9:36 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 205 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 92 of 135 (339120)
08-11-2006 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Adequate
08-10-2006 9:36 PM


People remember hymns, after all. Whereas they forget science.

all i remember from chemistry is:

quote:
Johnny was a chemist, but Johnny is no more.
What he thought was H2O was H2SO4!

What the heck are you playing at?

clinton did it too!


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-10-2006 9:36 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 929 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 135 (339145)
08-11-2006 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Adequate
08-10-2006 9:36 PM


Believing
quote:
I get told that "evolution is a religion" and that "to believe in evolution requires faith", and, on this thread, that those pesky "evolutionists" "spread the word", that evolution is "messianic", and the implication of your post seems to be that if we're going to teach children evolution we might as well teach them to sing hymns to Darwin.
It will be interesting to see what answer you get, if any.

This is an example of what I was trying to find out about "believing".

I consider believing and faith as trusting that something is true or not false at least.

I was taught about evolution in HS. I learned it and gave all the right answers on the test. Once out of HS, I hear more about evolution within the Church than outside of it. In my daily life, I don't think about it.

If I choose to look around me and say, "I don't think they were right in their theory, nothing evolves." I can. My life doesn't change. No one knocks on my door and gives me a pamphlet with all the promises of evolution. I only had to deal with evolution again when my daughter was studying it in school. Did hear of it again outside of the church until I started on this board.

In my average life, it doesn't really matter how the world came to be the way it is. I can't change what was. I can only deal with what is.

The theory of evolution doesn't require that I change my life, give money to those who study it, listen to speeches on evolution on a weekly basis, or read and study the same book every week for the rest of my life. I'm not required to "fellowship" with others who supposedly think the same way I do. I'm not inundated with evolution merchandise being sold to raise money to send people to those who haven't heard of evolution or sold just to make money.

I learned it in HS. That's pretty much it.

To me believing or faith still boils down to trusting the word of the people giving you the information.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 929 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 94 of 135 (339146)
08-11-2006 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by arachnophilia
08-11-2006 12:45 AM


Flashback
Johnny was a chemist, but Johnny is no more.
What he thought was H2O was H2SO4!

My Dad used to tell me that one, but I've forgotten what H2SO4 was. :confused:

Needless to say I didn't take chemistry. :(


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1567 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 95 of 135 (339155)
08-11-2006 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by purpledawn
08-11-2006 7:15 AM


Re: Flashback
Lovely thirst quenching sulphuric acid.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 96 of 135 (339160)
08-11-2006 9:21 AM


It looks like it is needed in the US
In a recent study, the US lags behind the rest of the developed world in understanding and accepting both genetics and evolution. Some indicators show the US falling even further behind all developed countries except Turkey. One key point of difference was the nature of Fundamentalist religions in the US (predominitely Christian fundamentalists) and in Turkey (predominitely Muslim fundamentalists).

While American fundamentalists tend to interpret the Bible literally and to view Genesis as a true and accurate account of creation, mainstream Protestants in both the United States and Europe instead treat Genesis as metaphorical, the researchers say.

AbE:

One of the funnier quotes in the article is from Bruce Chapman of the misnamed Discovery Institute (should be called the Coverup Institute) and clearly illustrates just how totally bankrupt and useless both Creationism and ID are and how willing the supporters are to grab at anything that can posibly be twisted so that it apears to support ID or Biblical Creationism.

"A better explanation for the high percentage of doubters of Darwinism in America may be that this country's citizens are famously independent and are not given to being rolled by an ideological elite in any field," Chapman said. "In particular, the growing doubts about Darwinism undoubtedly reflect growing doubts among scientists about Darwinian theory. Over 640 have now signed a public dissent and the number keeps growing."

What an absolutely classic example of just how silly the ID and Biblical Creationism really is cannot be be faked. Only someone like Bruce Chapman could even imagine that is support.

Contrast their list of 640 scientists with the over 10,000 US Christian Clergy who signed the Clergy Letter supporting teaching the Theory of Evolution and decrying teaching of ID or Biblical Creationism.

Biblical Creationism is not simply bad science, it is worse theology.

Edited by jar, : add comment

Edited by jar, : less more


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
Replies to this message:
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 3465 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 97 of 135 (339176)
08-11-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
08-11-2006 9:21 AM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
How ironic is it that - in regard to the EVC debate (especially on this site) - religion is decried as the absolute worst form of evidence especially when faced with the objectivity of Science, and yet to claim the opposite when it is suitable to the argument...

Consider the above claim:

What an absolutely classic example of just how silly the ID and Biblical Creationism really is cannot be be faked. Only someone like Bruce Chapman could even imagine that is support.

Contrast their list of 640 scientists with the over 10,000 US Christian Clergy who signed the Clergy Letter supporting teaching the Theory of Evolution and decrying teaching of ID or Biblical Creationism.

What does it matter what some uneducated clergy are willing to concede in the face of intense public pressure from academia, the media, and the public at large - especially in the face of declining church attendance. How does their opinion of science matter anymore than the supposed 60 percent of laypeople in this country who don't believe in strict darwinian evolution? Furthermore, 10000 clergy men out of approximately 400 thousand churches in the country means that these signees constitue an extreme minority (2.5%!) of nationwide clergy. If the opinions of 640 scientists are so vastly discounted by the counter-voice of their majority opposition, why isn't the same true with the clergy?

Instead of ridiculing the growing number of skeptical scientists (PhDs, I might add) who are brave enough to voice their doubt of the current theories, we might be more willing hold off on our ridicule long enough to consider if there might be someting there...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 9:21 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 11:39 AM mjfloresta has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 98 of 135 (339181)
08-11-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 11:18 AM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
What does it matter what some uneducated clergy are willing to concede in the face of intense public pressure from academia, the media, and the public at large - especially in the face of declining church attendance.

Uneducated clergy? I suppose you do have something to back that up? Do you have ANY idea of how in the churches listed in the signers of the Clergy Project open letter one becomes a member of the clergy?

For Reference

Public pressure? Might it not also be that the weight of evidence is so enormous that to even consider either ID or Biblical Creationism is simply laughable?

Instead of ridiculing the growing number of skeptical scientists (PhDs, I might add) who are brave enough to voice their doubt of the current theories, we might be more willing hold off on our ridicule long enough to consider if there might be someting there...

Held off. Looked at the evidence. ID and Biblical Creationism have been examined and found wanting.

Mene Mene Tekle Upharsin.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 11:18 AM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 3465 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 99 of 135 (339184)
08-11-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
08-11-2006 11:39 AM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
It's amazing how the context of what one writes is so easily ignored...

Obviously I'm talking about the their lack of SCIENCE credentials (i'm sure they are quite inundated with Doctor's of Theology and Master's of Divinity)

So the matter still remains that we have 10,000 clergy with Master's of Divinity and Doctor's of Theology who know nothing about science (officially of course, not knowing what their personal interests may be) being heralded as the clincher for Evolution vs Creation

AND we have 10,000 clergy with those Masters and Doctorates Versus another 350,000 + who haven't signed the document - the vast majority of which also possess those lovely Masters and Doctorates...

So again I ask, what does it matter what an extremely minor fraction of uneducated (scientifically, of course) clergy believe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 11:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 100 of 135 (339187)
08-11-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 12:00 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
Again you seem to be misunderstanding the example.

The point is that the clergy signing the letter condemn Biblical Creationism and ID on not just scientific issues but also because it is Bad Theology.

Like so many of us, they are fully capable of examining the evidence for evolution and the total lack of evidence for ID as well as the absolute refutation of Biblical Creationism.

Biblical Creationism is totally refuted and backrupt. The simple fact that we see stars is enough to totally discount any Young Earth scenario. As I said, ID and Biblical Creationism are NOT JUST bad science, they are worse theology.

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 3465 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 101 of 135 (339189)
08-11-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
08-11-2006 12:10 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
OK - So we have 640 scientists who doubt evolution; but they are ignored because tens of thousands of scientists feel otherwise;

We have 10,000 clergy who have a specific theology about Life Origins; but they are heralded as authoritative despite the counter-position held by 350,000 thousand clergy..

See the hypocrisy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 12:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 102 of 135 (339192)
08-11-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 12:17 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
OK - So we have 640 scientists who doubt evolution; but they are ignored because tens of thousands of scientists feel otherwise;

We have 10,000 clergy who have a specific theology about Life Origins; but they are heralded as authoritative despite the counter-position held by 350,000 thousand clergy..

See the hypocrisy?

Nope.

Let me try one more time.

The point of the comparision is that the Discovery Institute touting 640 scientists as evidence of the validity of ID or Biblical Creationism is absurd. Showing that lists of clergy oppose the teaching of ID or Biblical Creationism simply points out that lists can be gathered on either side.

The reason we need to spread the word about what the Theory of Evolution actually says is that there may still be hundreds of thousands of clergy who simply are ignorant of what it says and what it means theologically.

The issues is not a vote. The issue is that anyone who supports either Biblical Creationism or ID is simply wrong. We need to help them, teach them both the science that leads inevitably to an acceptance of an old universe and evolution, as well as the theological implications. We need to help these people learn that what the evidence shows is NOT a threat to a belief in GOD or Christianity.

The issue is not number of supporters, but rather one of conclusions based on evidence.

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 12:17 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 3465 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 103 of 135 (339203)
08-11-2006 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
08-11-2006 12:36 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
You can't try one more time when you keep changing your approach;

Are you using the the clergy list to support a scientific view? (ToE)

Are you using the clergy list to support a theological view? (that evolution is compatible with Christianity?)

IF the first, then I have pointed out that: The clergy are unqualified as a whole to make any contribution to science.

IF the second, then I have shown that: The 10,000 clergy on your list are representative of a very minority position within Christianity.

The reason we need to spread the word about what the Theory of Evolution actually says is that there may still be hundreds of thousands of clergy who simply are ignorant of what it says and what it means theologically.

What is means theologically? Now science is going to instruct religion? The ToE is going to tell these 'ignorant' clergy what the ToE means THEOLOGICALLY? How presumptuous...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 1:16 PM mjfloresta has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 104 of 135 (339204)
08-11-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 1:10 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
No, I am using the Clergy list to show that voting on reality is nothing but a waste of time and effort.

What is means theologically? Now science is going to instruct religion? The ToE is going to tell these 'ignorant' clergy what the ToE means THEOLOGICALLY? How presumptuous...

No, hopefully though the ignorant clergy can learn from reality. Hopefully the ignorant clergy can also learn from the educated minority of other clergy theologically.

ID and Biblical Creationism are not just bad science, they are bad theology.

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 1:10 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 105 of 135 (339207)
08-11-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 1:10 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
quote:
Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin

Hint: As the Old Carpenter said, "Measure twice, cut once. Cut twice and it's still too short."


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