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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 3 of 271 (8239)
04-06-2002 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by joz
04-06-2002 1:07 AM


Posting links with no accompanying discussion isn't an effective way to begin discussion. Dan asks, "Ever see these links before?" Does that mean, "Ever see them before, aren't they enlightening?" or "Ever seen them before, aren't they ridiculous." That's why the guidelines request that bare links not be posted, that they be accompanied by explanation or discussion of the point to be taken from them.
I'll leave this thread open in case anyone wants to address the issues presented in the links from an educational perspective.
--Percy

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 Message 2 by joz, posted 04-06-2002 1:07 AM joz has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 53 of 271 (559412)
05-09-2010 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 12:08 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
What, Bluescat? You have yet to refute the evidence I have been claiming.
It's important to use the right terminology. You claim to have presented evidence, but I just read all eleven of your messages in this thread and I saw no evidence presented. What I saw was a fanciful story and frequent resort to arguments that boil down to, "You only believe that because of your worldview."
So let's see some evidence. You can start with evidence for the "curse."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 12:08 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 9:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 55 of 271 (559416)
05-09-2010 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 9:35 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
I have cited the similarities of the respective dinos to the respective belly crawler types as per the Genesis record which depicts the shortening of legs and physiology of the serpent kind to be adapted to what is observed.
The only other message in the thread mentioning the curse in the context of "belly crawlers" is Message 20 where you say:
Buzsaw in Message 20 writes:
Their body physiology, in fact did become profoundly different after the fall curse, in which they lost their long legs, became belly crawlers, much smaller and perhaps other changes adapting them to a totally different existence.
You presented no evidence for a curse, nor have you even defined it. Just from reading this I would gather that a curse is something that makes your legs shorter. How was it established that this is what a curse does? How does one effect a curse? Have curses ever been observed directly, and if not, what form does the evidence for curses take?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 9:35 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 10:53 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 59 of 271 (559421)
05-09-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 10:53 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Note: The Genesis account of the curse is not evidence.
Can we therefore agree that there is no evidence for "the curse" or for the effects of curses?
If so, then how can you imply a causal relationship between "the curse" and any observations you might make about the natural world?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 10:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 1:56 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 69 of 271 (559439)
05-09-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 1:56 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi Buz,
I don't know what all that had to do with my question, so let me ask it again.
Can we therefore agree that there is no evidence for "the curse" or for the effects of curses? And that therefore no causal connection can be drawn between "the curse" and any observations you might happen to make about the natural world?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 1:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 9:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 84 of 271 (559528)
05-10-2010 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 9:13 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi Buzsaw,
For the sake of discussion let us assume that somewhere in Genesis it "states that at some point the long legged reptile type would cease to exist and the descendents of it would be belly crawling (implicating short legged) types of reptiles." Let us further assume for the sake of discussion that this is what the fossil record says actually happened. In other words, for the sake of discussion we'll assume that the Bible says this happened and that the evidence from the real world also says it happened and so backs up and validates the Biblical account.
How are you going to connect this event to "the curse" for which there is no real world evidence?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 9:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2010 8:58 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 90 of 271 (559570)
05-10-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
05-10-2010 8:58 AM


Re: Evidence Of Curse
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
How are you going to connect this event to "the curse" for which there is no real world evidence?
World evidence?
I didn't say "world evidence." I don't know what world evidence is. I said "real world evidence."
The phrase real world is one familiar to most people. Someone today might say, "My on-line life is a lot more exciting than my real world life." The phrase real world serves as an adjective.
So when I said "real world evidence" I meant evidence from the real world. This means evidence that we can detect (directly or indirectly) through our senses.
So what I said was, for the sake of discussion let us assume that somewhere in Genesis it "states that at some point the long legged reptile type would cease to exist and the descendents of it would be belly crawling (implicating short legged) types of reptiles." Let us further assume for the sake of discussion that this is what the fossil record says actually happened. In other words, for the sake of discussion we'll assume that the Bible says this happened and that the evidence from the real world also says it happened and so backs up and validates the Biblical account.
How are you going to connect this event to "the curse" for which there is no real world evidence?
Clarifying once again, "real world evidence" means evidence from the real world, like the evidence for fossils is real world evidence. What is your real world evidence that there is such a thing as "the curse?"
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Change author.
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2010 8:58 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2010 9:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 111 of 271 (559705)
05-11-2010 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Buzsaw
05-10-2010 9:46 PM


Re: Real World Evidence Of Curse
Hi Buz,
For the sake of discussion we've postulated that the evidence from the real world supports the Biblical account that the dinosaurs were transformed into snakes because when we examine the real-world evidence it pretty much confirms what the Bible says.
What is it about that real world evidence that says the extinction event was caused by a curse, or anything supernatural for that matter.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2010 9:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2010 2:10 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 130 of 271 (559812)
05-11-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 2:10 PM


Re: Real World Evidence Of Curse
Hi Buz,
I'm trying to reach common ground. If you believe the curse is not on-topic in this thread then I won't mention it again if you won't.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2010 2:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 131 of 271 (559815)
05-11-2010 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 4:52 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
No, Zen. My position has always been throughout this thread and elsewhere that the dinos became extinct at the commencement of the alleged ww flood. which allegedly took place about 4350 years ago or so.
What is your evidence that dinosaurs lived as recently as 4350 years ago?
1) Zen, the fall, according to the Genesis curse account, i.e. non-dino types would not have existed until the time of the curse when the existing dinos laid their eggs.
Since the curse is off-topic, what you meant to say is that at around the time of the flood dinosaurs, which were reptiles of the orders Ornithischia and Saurischia, laid eggs from which sprang lizards and snakes of the order Squamata. What is your evidence that anything like this ever happened?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2010 4:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2010 10:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 138 of 271 (559956)
05-12-2010 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
05-11-2010 10:17 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
What is your evidence that dinosaurs lived as recently as 4350 years ago?
That would have to fall back on flood evidence which would be another topic to explain, in that it would involved discussion of reliability of radiometric dates relative to the possibility of a flood.
So your evidence that dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago is the unreliability of radiometric dating? So if radiometric dating had never been invented so that you could point to how unreliable it is you'd have no evidence at all?
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that radiometric had never been invented. What is your evidence that dinosaurs still lived 4350 years ago?
Now we're back to square one which again goes into how the observed evidence of the by and large extinction of dinos and the survival of the others is interpreted.
How is the physiological and genetic evidence interpreted to reach the conclusion that snakes and lizards are the descendants of dinosaurs?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2010 10:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 10:59 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 149 of 271 (560022)
05-12-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Buzsaw
05-12-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that radiometric had never been invented. What is your evidence that dinosaurs still lived 4350 years ago?
The evidence remains being what is observed; fossils showing that long legged repiles have become extinct and that a large array of close to earth reptiles thrive abundantly.
Nothing there about 4350 years ago.
This coupled with physical evidence attributed to the flood (another topic) and recorded history becomes inclusive in the thesis. applying the 4350 or so date
Nothing there about 4350 years ago, either.
Pretend you're preparing me for a debate where I'm to take the position that dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago. What information are you going to give me so that I can win the debate?
Percy writes:
How is the physiological and genetic evidence interpreted to reach the conclusion that snakes and lizards are the descendants of dinosaurs?
The most significant of this I've repeatedly repeated already, such as the fact that both are reptillian,...
Not only are they both reptilian, they're both reptiles. Dinosaurs are in the class Reptilia. Snakes and lizards are in the class Reptilia. Members of the Reptilia class tend to be reptilian.
...similarities of visible appearance such as the two examples of the respective types. So far as the genes, that they would be different is extrapolated from the thesis as cause and effect. Any change in genetically physiology would necessarily be effected by genes.
You've just described your hypothesis, not your evidence. It is your hypothesis that the changes observed in the fossil record were brought about by dramatic genetic changes in a single generation. What is the evidence for your hypothesis?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 162 of 271 (560289)
05-14-2010 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Buzsaw
05-13-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
A tad shaped like this little guy. Brookesia peyrierasi chameleon on leaf
The one on top is a Dimetrodon, which is in the class Synapsida, and so is neither a reptile nor a dinosaur, though its legs and movement are thought to have resembled a lizard's. But apparently the Synapsids are closer to mammals than to reptiles.
The chameleon on the bottom *is* a reptile.
Since you have dinosaurs undergoing a complete genetic makeover in a single generation, why do you care how much they look like each other, and where is the evidence for your hypothesis of a genetic makeover?
As others are pointing out, if your sole evidence for relatedness is vague resemblances then you're bound to arrive at all kinds of weird and wrong conclusions. General shape and appearance are molded by the environment, and similar environments and ecological niches will produce similar external appearances. It's the internal details that reveal actual evolutionary relationships, which in the case of fossils is usually just bones, though sometimes more, like skin impressions and so forth.
But let's get back to a more basic issue. Pretend you're preparing me for a debate on the flood where I'm to take the position that the dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago. What information are you going to give me so I can win the debate?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Clarify first para.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2010 11:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2010 10:59 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 173 of 271 (560359)
05-14-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
05-14-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
But let's get back to a more basic issue. Pretend you're preparing me for a debate on the flood where I'm to take the position that the dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago. What information are you going to give me so I can win the debate?
Relative to the dino topic here, a ww flood would have wiped them all out since only the non-dino types would have been on the ark. The flood debate, as I've alluded to in past threads, involves a significantly pre-flood non-uniformative planet and atmosphere. For decades I've been considering all of the ramifications of this concept. Preparing one for such a debate , like ToE, involves a lot more than one message on one topic thread.
So imagine I go first in the debate and open like this:
"Good evening ladies and gentlemen, my name is Percy, and tonight I'm going to explain how we know what happened to the dinosaurs.
"We all know the familiar tale of the flood and Noah's ark. God poured forth rain and geysers upon the Earth for 40 days and 40 nights and the entire Earth was covered by water for the better part of a year, and Noah saved all the animals on the ark. But what about the dinosaurs? We know from paleontology that dinosaurs used to roam the Earth, but there are no dinosaurs today. What happened to the dinosaurs?
"The reason there are no dinosaurs today is because some dinosaurs were transformed into lizards and snakes in the Garden of Eden when Eve gave Adam the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. The remaining dinosaurs lived until the flood, and then they died because they were not taken on the ark.
"Now, this may seem like an incredible story, but it's all true, and we know it is true because of the evidence that has been gathered over the years. I'm here tonight to present this evidence. I didn't uncover this evidence myself, but it was presented to me by a man far wiser than myself who has spent many years studying the problem, and tonight I'm going to present this evidence to you."
Now, Buz, what do I say next? What's this evidence?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 8:24 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 175 of 271 (560440)
05-15-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
05-15-2010 8:24 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi Buz,
I wanted to move ahead in small steps and should have made the the last part of my introductory comments more specific. Let me offer this additional paragraph:
"One of the most controversial claims of creation science is that dinosaurs lived as recently as 4350 years ago at the beginning of the flood year, but we have firm evidence that dinosaurs were living at that time, and I shall describe that evidence for you now."
Now, Buz, what do I say next?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 8:24 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 4:36 PM Percy has replied

  
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