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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 211 of 271 (560671)
05-16-2010 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 9:59 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
...in fact my hypothesis has no less evidence than secular science's meteor hypothesis.

That's where you are wrong.

There is no scientific evidence for that mythical "water canopy," nor for a young earth. There is no scientific evidence for a global flood in the last 4500 or so years. Neither is there any scientific evidence for your view of dating.

You are deluding yourself in believing that there is. And, worse, you are trying to delude us with your unsupported fantasies.

And this is why I don't like posting to you on these issues. You just make things up! You have no touch with reality, or empirical evidence. If your religious beliefs say otherwise you just ignore any evidence, no matter how convincing that evidence is to others. You are lying to yourself and that's the worse lie of all.

And all of that is the exact opposite of science.

Yet still you pronounce your beliefs as if they were supported by scientific evidence!

That is why I am not posting to you very often. Your approach is entirely foreign to me. If the evidence points in some direction, I have to follow it whether I like it or not. You, on the other hand, just ignore what you don't like. Sorry, that's not science, nor is it honest. Nor is it something that I, as a scientist, can easily tolerate.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 9:59 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 11:43 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 212 of 271 (560676)
05-16-2010 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Percy
05-16-2010 6:03 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:

Crater
Shocked quartz in Nebraska
Tectites
Iridium
Tsunami deposits
Some equivalent and very brief list for the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs 4350 years ago should take you almost no time at all and I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks

Percy, thanks! Thanks very much! A proverbial light bulb just lit up my porverbial belfry as I meditated on this meteor event and evidence.

For decades I've wondered what triggered the ww flood event. It would be feasable that the way Jehovah effected the ww flood was this very meteor strike.

Both the Buzsaw Bible hypothosis and your science hypothesis has it that the climate was warmer and wetter during the dino era and that the cooling came at the time the dino era ended.

The Biblical premise and thesis implies a canopy like atmosphere from which most of the water which effected the ww flood. It also implicates the effects of the reptile curse and the end of the dinos at the time of the flood.

The same cooling and drying effect that began the alleged Tertiery era effected by the meteor evidence would have also caused the cooling and condensing of the canopy vapor and the alleged ww flood.

The Biblical premise clearly has it that dino's and humans co-existed, being all of the animals and mankind was allegedly created on the same day; day six.

Ever since a child I have asked God for wisdom and understanding in all things. Thus you have actually been instrumental in enlightment on this mystery as to what could have triggered the flood event.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 05-16-2010 6:03 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by hooah212002, posted 05-16-2010 11:16 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2010 11:55 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 226 by Percy, posted 05-17-2010 11:29 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 514 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 213 of 271 (560682)
05-16-2010 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 10:54 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Your word salad's remind me of someone......who could it be.....? Oh, I know:

You seem to be as smart as her.


"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 10:54 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 271 (560687)
05-16-2010 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Coyote
05-16-2010 10:38 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Coyote writes:

There is no scientific evidence for that mythical "water canopy,"

Science = warmer and wetter planet in dino era.
Buzsaw/Genesis = warmer and wetter planet in dino era.

Science = warmer and wetter planet before K T event.
Buzsaw/Genesis = vapor canopy = warmer and wetter planet.

Science = crater event effects cooling and ends dino era.
Buzsaw/Genesis (new enlightment) = crater evemt effects condensation of canopy effecting cooling and ending dino era.

Coyote writes:

.......nor for a young earth.......

Science = old earth
Buzsaw/Genesis = old earth.

Coyote writes:

There is no scientific evidence for a global flood in the last 4500 or so years. Neither is there any scientific evidence for your view of dating.

Science = amount of carbon and other elements on earth and atmosphere affect dating data.
Buzsaw/Genesis = Catastrophic non-uniform elements on earth before 4350 years ago.

Coyote writes:

.......you are trying to delude us with your unsupported fantasies.

Science's unsupported fantasies (see msg to Hyroglyphx are deluding the sheeple.

Coyote writes:

And this is why I don't like posting to you on these issues. You just make things up! You have no touch with reality, or empirical evidence. If your religious beliefs say otherwise you just ignore any evidence, no matter how convincing that evidence is to others. You are lying to yourself and that's the worse lie of all.

Perceived reality sometimes becomes falsified by minority PoVs.

Coyote writes:

That is why I am not posting to you very often. Your approach is entirely foreign to me. If the evidence points in some direction, I have to follow it whether I like it or not. You, on the other hand, just ignore what you don't like. Sorry, that's not science, nor is it honest. Nor is it something that I, as a scientist, can easily tolerate.

I regard you as a very intelligent, pleasant and respectful member. Perhaps, however, people like you who've been indoctrinated into your mindset in academia need to at least become aware of alternative possibilities and to confront the challenge some of them bring. I don't think you or anyone else in this thread has effectively (I say effectively) met that challenge in this thread. You have unfinished work here before you can count the ole man down and out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2010 10:38 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by hooah212002, posted 05-17-2010 12:16 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 222 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-17-2010 2:37 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 215 of 271 (560688)
05-16-2010 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 10:54 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
For decades I've wondered what triggered the ww flood event.

Traditionally, the flood has been ascribed to the will of God.

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened.

It would be feasable that the way Jehovah effected the ww flood was this very meteor strike.

You would then have to attribute all the sedimentary rocks below the KT boundary to real processes and not the magic flood.

Ever since a child I have asked God for wisdom and understanding in all things.

And then people wonder why I'm an atheist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 10:54 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 10:29 AM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 225 by subbie, posted 05-17-2010 10:51 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 216 of 271 (560689)
05-16-2010 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 9:27 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Please explain your blind assertion, Doc. Thanks.

We have the skeletons of many other extinct reptiles besides dinosaurs, and you know this damn well if you've bothered to read this thread. I've supplied you with photographs, for pete's sake.

It is you who are apparently blind to evidence which I have waved in front of your face. Somehow your religion has made you so disconnected from reality that you can't see plesiosaurs and mosasaurs and pterosaurs and ichthyosaurs and pelycosaurs even when you're looking straight at them.

Please explain why you are pretending that I was making a "blind assertion" and tell me whom you were hoping to deceive with such a risible falsehood.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 9:27 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-17-2010 2:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 514 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 217 of 271 (560691)
05-17-2010 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 11:43 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Evidence?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 11:43 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 218 of 271 (560693)
05-17-2010 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 10:16 PM


Re: Fantastic Claims
So Hyro, things like the flood, ID (higher intelligence) having the ability to create and change things are no more fantastic, when you think about it objectively than things you people believe and claim to be factual.

A priori, creationist delusions are no more fantastic than scientific facts, just as a unicorn is not more fantastic than a giraffe.

The difference is that scientific discoveries are supported by evidence, whereas the fantasies of creationists are unsupported, and indeed contradicted, by the evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 10:16 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 1506 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(1)
Message 219 of 271 (560695)
05-17-2010 12:51 AM


Human Ancestors At K-T
I thought Buzsaw was starting to wear out and it saddened me, this wonderful thread (have y'all read page one? Awesome!) needs to grow and grow. But this recent turn of events, in which our esteemed opponent has incorporated the catastrophic meteor evidence package, subject to apologetics of course, into his own Deluge argument, has kind of inspired me.

So, I wanted to point out that there really were human ancestors alive at the time of the K-T strike(s), and that they really bear some remarkable resemblances to ourselves, considering the tremendous amount of time (or curse, or baramin-corruption, or whatever) that has gone by.

Here are some pictures of what we might have looked at at the time the sky really did fall.


Yoda?

"Flooding there will be. Wooden box must build."


Rikki-Tikki-Tavvi?

It must be the head he said at last; the head above the hood. And, when I am once there, I must not let go.


Ghost Dance

And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.


These are actually small Lemurs, by the way. They just happen to bear the closest resemblance to our common ancestor 65 million years ago. They were much smaller than we are now, though still good with the opposable thumb. But I bet that if we could go back in time, take ten generations or so to train them by Skinner methods (Don't touch that tree! ZAP! Touch this tree! KCHING!) we could plausibly get them to build a nice box.

Their cubit though, half their armspan, would have been tremendously shorter than our own. This is interesting because in Noah's time the ark was large enough to fill with the ancestors of modern livestock, whereas by the time of Moses and the Judges it was small enough to carry around by hand and house in a tent.


Anyone else see any interesting ways to slide some fun with science and the Bible into this thread?


  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13365
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 220 of 271 (560700)
05-17-2010 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 10:16 PM


Re: Fantastic Claims
quote:

That makes me very scientific like, Hyro. That's the science thing, i.e. fantastic claims that we repeatedly debate here at EvC.

But in fact you are very unscientific. The "fantastic claims" of science are solidly based on evidence. You do no more than pay lip service to the concept of evidence, merely asserting that you have evidence when it is plain that you have nothing of significance, that you refuse to investigate the evidence to any depth, that you ignore contradictory evidence, that you accuse others of "bias" merely because they DO use evidence.

All this can be readily seen in this very thread.

Being opinionated, ignorant and arrogant does not make you right. It just keeps you from seeing that you are wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 10:16 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2121 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 221 of 271 (560701)
05-17-2010 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2010 11:59 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Dr Adequate writes:

We have the skeletons of many other extinct reptiles besides dinosaurs, and you know this damn well if you've bothered to read this thread. I've supplied you with photographs, for pete's sake.

I think I've got Buz's logic figured out for this one.

When you go to the museum to see dinosaurs, all you see are displays of bones.

Your pictures were of displays of bones.

Therefore, all of your pictures were of dinosaurs.

Thus, only dinosaurs were made extinct by the Flood/Meteor Strike 4350/65,000,000 years ago.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2010 11:59 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2121 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 222 of 271 (560703)
05-17-2010 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 11:43 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:

Science = amount of carbon and other elements on earth and atmosphere affect dating data.
Buzsaw/Genesis = Catastrophic non-uniform elements on earth before 4350 years ago.

Buz, I've asked you about this sort of claim plenty of times before. What on earth do you mean by non-uniform elements? What about the elements in the pre-Flood world was different from the elements making up matter today? Or is your only problem the fact that the very nature of matter shows that your assertions are as so far removed from reality that the Andromeda galaxy is just down at the end of the driveway by comparison?

I quote myself from Message 161:

quote:
Floods don't somehow magically alter the fundamental nature of matter, which is what you keep asserting time after time. Reality is reality, Buz, that's the only assumption that science is making here. If you want to deny that, then I guess you are perfectly justified in making up stories in direct contradiction to the way the world really works, and you must believe that your God has created a universe in which nothing makes sense from one minute to the next. Feel free to live in fantasyland and pretend that reality is whatever you want to be; I'm starting to suspect that that's exactly what you do.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 11:43 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 223 of 271 (560721)
05-17-2010 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 10:16 PM


Re: Fantastic Claims
When an appropriate thread comes out about abiogenesis or the big bang, direct your criticism there. That straw man has nothing to do with this thread. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly as well as requests that you present some evidence for your claim.

Can we reasonably assume that you have none since you keep shifting the goals?


"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." Blaise Pascal
This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 10:16 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 271 (560743)
05-17-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2010 11:55 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Dr Adequate writes:

Buzsaw writes:

For decades I've wondered what triggered the ww flood event.


Traditionally, the flood has been ascribed to the will of God.

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened.

The Buzsaw thing has always applied science to the Biblical record. After all, God, being the source of the observable scientific laws does not violate his own laws. It is the Buzsaw Biblical Hypothesis that best accomodates 1 LoT, in that it eliminates the magical notion of your version of science that the universe and time being finite had a beginning, i.e. energy had a beginning. The Buzsaw Biblical thing has a rational explanation for all of the design, order and complex things observed in the universe. We just don't observe complex order when things are left unmanaged except in flukey rare occasions. Things we observe around us in the real world deterioriate, run down and become disorderly as time passes. That's scientific.

Now, Doc, you go on to fault fundies for looking for naturalistic causes while looking for magical explanations. That's not what I'm about or what I'm doing. Note below what I say next: "Jehovah (magical in your view) effected (worked/caused) the ww flood" via a meteor strike. (natural)
God didn't simply say words to create things. He worked, using energy to do it. He didn't magically zap man into existence. He brought him forth from dirt, i.e. from the earth via work as does your science. Your science says the earth essentially created/designed itself, violating what we observe in real life around us. My Biblical science says it was planned and designed by energy that never had a beginning as per 1LoT.

So you see, Doc, what you're doing here is ascribing ID as magic, when infact all ID is about is to recognize the science thing of observed evidence. Observed evidence in the real world around us is that order just does not come about by leaving things to themselves unmanaged. If I leave a warehouse untended, it will eventually the roof leaks and it along with it's contents deteriorate.

Dr Adequate writes:

Buzsaw writes:

It would be feasable that the way Jehovah effected the ww flood was this very meteor strike.

You would then have to attribute all the sedimentary rocks below the KT boundary to real processes and not the magic flood.

Only, Dr Adequate, if you do the inadequate thing of equating intelligent management of real processes to magic.

Dr Adequate writes:

Buzsaw writes:

Ever since a child I have asked God for wisdom and understanding in all things.

And then people wonder why I'm an atheist.

No Doc. You're an athiest because you have failed to ask the omnicient god, Jehovah the Biblical god, for wisdom and understanding in all things.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2010 11:55 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 12:24 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 228 by Modulous, posted 05-17-2010 5:12 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 225 of 271 (560746)
05-17-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2010 11:55 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened.

Wonderful! Simply wonderful!

If you don't mind too terribly much, I'm adding this irresistible line to my signature box.

Edited by subbie, : Signature edit


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2010 11:55 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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