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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 226 of 271 (560750)
05-17-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Buzsaw
05-16-2010 10:54 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi Buz,

I've read through your message several times trying to extract the real world evidence for the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs 4350 years ago, and I think I've identified all of it. Would this be an accurate summary:

  • Evidence for an asteroid strike about 65 million years ago.

  • Evidence for a warmer and wetter climate prior to 65 million years ago.

If that is correct then I don't think I'm going to fare very well in the debate unless I start picking and choosing my scientific evidence. For example, I could mention the scientific evidence for an asteroid strike and leave out the scientific evidence that it occurred 65 million years ago, but that doesn't strike me as honest.

Given the evidence you've provided thus far I think I would be slaughtered in the debate. Do you have any other real world evidence for the existence of humans and dinosaurs 4350 years ago?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Buzsaw, posted 05-16-2010 10:54 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 9:18 PM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 227 of 271 (560755)
05-17-2010 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 10:29 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
The Buzsaw thing has always applied science to the Biblical record. After all, God, being the source of the observable scientific laws does not violate his own laws.

So it is impossible for him to violate his own laws by turning water into wine or raising the dead or walking on water?

It is the Buzsaw Biblical Hypothesis that best accomodates 1 LoT, in that it eliminates the magical notion of your version of science that the universe and time being finite had a beginning, i.e. energy had a beginning.

Please do not lie to me about my own opinions.

The Buzsaw Biblical thing has a rational explanation for all of the design, order and complex things observed in the universe. We just don't observe complex order when things are left unmanaged except in flukey rare occasions. Things we observe around us in the real world deterioriate, run down and become disorderly as time passes. That's scientific.

This is not true, as we know by observation.

Now, Doc, you go on to fault fundies for looking for naturalistic causes while looking for magical explanations. That's not what I'm about or what I'm doing.

It's what you and your pals keep on doing.

You want to explain a real thing, such as the diversity of species.

Your explanation --- GOD DID IT BY MAGIC!

You want to explain an unreal thing, such as Noah's Flood.

Your explanation --- THERE WAS A METOR STRIKE.

God didn't simply say words to create things. He worked, using energy to do it. He didn't magically zap man into existence. He brought him forth from dirt, i.e. from the earth via work as does your science. Your science says the earth essentially created/designed itself, violating what we observe in real life around us. My Biblical science says it was planned and designed by energy that never had a beginning as per 1LoT.

Your statements about the first law of thermodynamics are not really coherent enough for me to comment on.

The most I can say is that you are suffering from delusions about the first law of thermodynamics.

If you will state more explicity how you would like to be stupidly, howlingly, ridiculously wrong about the first law of thermodynamics, then I shall mock you in greater detail. But so far all you have communicated to us is that you wish to be wrong about it in some way.

Could you actually have the cojones to be wrong about something in particular?

Only, Dr Adequate, if you do the inadequate thing of equating intelligent management of real processes to magic.

And of course I do not.

So, try again. Clearly I have made you angry, but I have not made you coherent.

I wish I could have made you coherent instead.

No Doc. You're an athiest because you have failed to ask the omnicient god, Jehovah the Biblical god, for wisdom and understanding in all things.

You are lying to me, about me.

I have of course tried. I have prayed and begged and wept for your imaginary god to tell me if he's real. That is one of the main reasons why I am no longer a Christian.

All I got was a strong impression that your imaginary friend is a lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 10:29 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7507
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 228 of 271 (560796)
05-17-2010 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 10:29 AM


Just so
Your science says the earth essentially created/designed itself, violating what we observe in real life around us.

Did you not notice the problem here? Science involves reaching conclusions that are consistent with our observations. There are several senses of the phrase you described above which do violate what we observe (things like planets simply don't create themselves ex nihilo), and in those senses science considers them falsified.

As for the natural history that various scientists have come together to describe....it is consistent with all the observations.

Naturally you think differently, you think you've found some evidence that demonstrates the inconsistency. You have hubris enough to think that your lay interest in the subject, along with reading a few websites and a holy book hither and thither puts you in a much better place to make a determination about what is and what is not consistent with the evidence.

So let's be honest here - the chances are that you are just another one of the many that thinks they know better. I'm sure you've been a genuine expert in one thing or another in your time. Something you spent 10s of thousands of hours actually doing not just reading about, but actual vocations.

Surely you are aware that there are things in your expert vocations (and for the sake of ease, let's not consider science or religious issues when considering this) which an intelligent but un-informed layman may think foolish, and that make up a common error for people who are new to the vocation.

If you Thatch roofs, it looks really easy and a passerby might think you are wasting a lot of time and it shouldn't take weeks to do it. But they'd be wrong no matter how clear it is to them that you are wasting time.

So can we please try and engage a little humility here?

One of the things evolutionists are often criticised for is 'just-so stories', and it is something we really need to be aware of. A just so story is essentially an explanation for how things occurred that is non specific (very broad and general) without any specific support.

For example: The leopard got its spots as African hunters used their dark skin to paint the sandy cat with mottles to make them better animals to hunt Zebras down in jungles.

So we need to make sure any story for how snakes came about does not fall into this trap.

Science suggests that snakes evolved from things like Najash rionegrina, snakish creature with stumpy hind legs that existed at the same time as the dinosaurs.

We both agree that the snake 'lost its legs' - the only question that seperates us is how.

You say it was a curse. I know how mutations and natural selection etc is meant to explain it I'm asking you...how does this curse function? What are its mechanics? What evidence would it leave behind? How do we falsify the hypothesis?

I'm not asking about the weather, but the mechanics which inexorably leads to the loss of legs and how it works in general terms. Otherwise it's just a Just So story and not a hypothesis at all.

Observed evidence in the real world around us is that order just does not come about by leaving things to themselves unmanaged.

Your intuitions regarding order and disorder in this universe are almost certainly at odds with the experts that study them. Just like the passer-bys opinions on how a police officer should deal with a suspect, just like the liberal that tells the soldier how to keep the peace, the taxi driver who thinks he knows how to organise a 100million people in a correct way, the mathematician who criticizes epistemology...

Maybe you are a genius, and maybe you are ahead of your time. But if that were true, you should be able to communicate something a little more meaty than you have so far done, yes?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 10:29 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 271 (560835)
05-17-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Percy
05-17-2010 11:29 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:

I've read through your message several times trying to extract the real world evidence for the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs 4350 years ago, and I think I've identified all of it. Would this be an accurate summary:

Evidence for an asteroid strike about 65 million years ago.

Evidence for a warmer and wetter climate prior to 65 million years ago.
If that is correct then I don't think I'm going to fare very well in the debate unless I start picking and choosing my scientific evidence. For example, I could mention the scientific evidence for an asteroid strike and leave out the scientific evidence that it occurred 65 million years ago, but that doesn't strike me as honest.

The flood hypothesis looks at the above evidence and attributes the warm and wet climate to a pre-flood planet and atmosphere as the vapor canopy which I've described. The flood hypothesis assumes a non-uniform catastrophic event. The implication of this is that the carbon and other element makeup of the planet and atmosphere previous to 4350 years ago would be unknown and likely much different than post flood. Thus the meteor strike and warmer climate could have happened a few thousand years ago.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix quote.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Percy, posted 05-17-2010 11:29 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by DrJones*, posted 05-17-2010 9:28 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 231 by Percy, posted 05-17-2010 9:48 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 232 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 10:54 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 240 by PaulK, posted 05-18-2010 1:47 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1683
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 230 of 271 (560839)
05-17-2010 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 9:18 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
The implication of this is that the carbon and other element makeup of the planet and atmosphere previous to 4350 years ago would be unknown and likely much different than post flood.

What evidence is there for this?

Thus the meteor strike and warmer climate could have happened a few thousand years ago.

How can the various dating methods all be wrong, yet still correlate with each other? Show your math.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 9:18 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 231 of 271 (560846)
05-17-2010 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 9:18 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:

The flood hypothesis looks at the above evidence and attributes the warm and wet climate to a pre-flood planet and atmosphere as the vapor canopy which I've described. The flood hypothesis assumes a non-uniform catastrophic event. The implication of this is that the carbon and other element makeup of the planet and atmosphere previous to 4350 years ago would be unknown and likely much different than post flood. Thus the meteor strike and warmer climate could have happened a few thousand years ago.

Right, we all understand your hypothesis. But remember, you're preparing me for a debate where I'm to take the position that humans and dinosaurs coexisted 4350 years ago, and I need the evidence supporting that hypothesis. So I might continue my presentation during the debate like this:

"I said in my introductory comments that I would describe the scientific evidence that tells us that humans and dinosaurs coexisted at the same time about 4350 years ago, and so I will do that now."

What do I say next? You have to tell me what the real world evidence is for the coexistence of dinosaurs and humans 4350 years ago so that I can present it in the debate.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Edited by Percy, : Clarification.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 9:18 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2010 12:01 AM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 232 of 271 (560856)
05-17-2010 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 9:18 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
The flood hypothesis looks at the above evidence and attributes the warm and wet climate to a pre-flood planet and atmosphere as the vapor canopy which I've described.

How does it deal with the evidence for periods of glaciation and periods of desertification?

Let me guess ... cherry-picking? You ignore everything that you can't shoe-horn into your fantasy world? Am I right?

Heck I don't need to ask if I'm right, I can see from your posts that I'm right.

The flood hypothesis assumes a non-uniform catastrophic event.

Except that you're now trying to attribute your imaginary flood, not to magic, but to a meteor strike, which is of course an actual thing that really happens, and so is a uniformitarian hypothesis.

The implication of this is that the carbon and other element makeup of the planet and atmosphere previous to 4350 years ago would be unknown and likely much different than post flood.

No. Meteor strikes do not cause magical impossible events that magically make creationists right in some magical way that they are completely unable to explain.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 9:18 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 11:44 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 271 (560867)
05-17-2010 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Dr Adequate
05-17-2010 10:54 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
D A, the meteor strike, if happened just before the flood would have cooled the vapor canopy pre-flood atmosphere and condensed it causing the first rain as per the Biblical record. You have to factor in all of the ramifications of a pre-flood planet and atmosphere, including different dating data.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 10:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-17-2010 11:46 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 235 by DrJones*, posted 05-17-2010 11:46 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 243 by misha, posted 05-18-2010 7:58 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 234 of 271 (560868)
05-17-2010 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 11:44 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
D A, the meteor strike, if happened just before the flood would have cooled the vapor canopy pre-flood atmosphere and condensed it causing the first rain as per the Biblical record. You have to factor in all of the ramifications of a pre-flood planet and atmosphere, including different dating data.

Show your working.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 11:44 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1683
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 235 of 271 (560869)
05-17-2010 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 11:44 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
You have to factor in all of the ramifications of a pre-flood planet and atmosphere, including different dating data

How did the pre-flood atmosphere cause the various datings methods to all be incorrect yet still agree with each other? show your math.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 11:44 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 271 (560871)
05-18-2010 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Percy
05-17-2010 9:48 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:

Right, we all understand your hypothesis. But remember, you're preparing me for a debate where I'm to take the position that humans and dinosaurs coexisted 4350 years ago, and I need the evidence supporting that hypothesis. So I might continue my presentation during the debate like this:

Percy, throughout the years here at EvC, I've presented corroborating evidence such as fulfilled prophecy and other data which convinces me that the Biblical record is a reliable premise for my world view. I've shown why I believe the data could (I say could) accomodate the Genesis record. As I've contended, no secularist non-ID minded person will ever admit to any evidence that I've ever cited. Ive presented another PoV based on the Biblical hypothesis, for what it's worth to you or anyone else. Obviously nobody here buys anthing I've said. I've aired all I have and am ready to move on to something else.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Percy, posted 05-17-2010 9:48 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Coyote, posted 05-18-2010 12:22 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-18-2010 12:32 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 239 by anglagard, posted 05-18-2010 1:43 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 241 by PaulK, posted 05-18-2010 2:47 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 05-18-2010 4:48 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6025
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 237 of 271 (560877)
05-18-2010 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
05-18-2010 12:01 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy, throughout the years here at EvC, I've presented corroborating evidence such as fulfilled prophecy and other data which convinces me that the Biblical record is a reliable premise for my world view. I've shown why I believe the data could (I say could) accomodate the Genesis record. As I've contended, no secularist non-ID minded person will ever admit to any evidence that I've ever cited. Ive presented another PoV based on the Biblical hypothesis, for what it's worth to you or anyone else. Obviously nobody here buys anthing I've said. I've aired all I have and am ready to move on to something else.

Buz, sorry to have to tell you this but what you have presented is not evidence.

You are presenting your own unsubstantiated fantasies and claiming scientific support, all the while ignoring any scientific evidence that anyone posts that refutes your claims.

That is why I don't post to you often. You live in your own fantasy world and have so little contact with reality, that dialog with you is almost always futile.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2010 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15972
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 238 of 271 (560882)
05-18-2010 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
05-18-2010 12:01 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy, throughout the years here at EvC, I've presented corroborating evidence such as fulfilled prophecy and other data which convinces me that the Biblical record is a reliable premise for my world view. I've shown why I believe the data could (I say could) accomodate the Genesis record. As I've contended, no secularist non-ID minded person will ever admit to any evidence that I've ever cited.

When your "evidence" consists of pretending that dinosaurs are the only extinct reptiles, then you are right, no sane person will ever "admit" that your garbage is true.

Ive presented another PoV based on the Biblical hypothesis ...

Don't kid yourself. The Bible may contain a lot of mistakes, but it doesn't contain your fantasies about extinct reptiles. That's something that you made up in your head.

Like the Arctic zebras. Remember that?

Obviously nobody here buys anthing I've said. I've aired all I have and am ready to move on to something else.

Good. Stop wasting your life talking nonsense to people who know that it's nonsense. Do something useful instead.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2010 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 239 of 271 (560887)
05-18-2010 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
05-18-2010 12:01 AM


Poor Ol' Buzsaw
Buzsaw writes:

Obviously nobody here buys anthing I've said.

Have you considered the thought that the problem may be with you and not the rest of the universe?

Some evidence for your assertions, even a little bit, would be nice.

Edited by anglagard, : second sentence


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Its us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2010 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13306
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 240 of 271 (560888)
05-18-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
05-17-2010 9:18 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
quote:

The flood hypothesis assumes a non-uniform catastrophic event. The implication of this is that the carbon and other element makeup of the planet and atmosphere previous to 4350 years ago would be unknown and likely much different than post flood.

Why would you expect Percy's audience to believe this ? Are you assuming that they will be so biased against the scientific view that they will swallow any old rubbish ?

Making up crazy speculations as an excuse for throwing out evidence you don't like isn't providing evidence for your views. It says a lot about you, but nothing about whether dinosaurs and humans co-existed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2010 9:18 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
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