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Author Topic:   Is creationism winning in Turkey & Korea?
AdminOmni
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Message 31 of 77 (308432)
05-02-2006 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by simple
05-01-2006 11:56 PM


Admin Warning
More than you know. as little as that may be.

Oh goody. Then you can do what you claim on this question I will pose. The bible says that this universe will pass away one day. It is temporary. Can you say that is wrong, or correct? Hopefully you were not just lying. Fill us in.

Let's see you strut your stuff here.

Relative, I presume it is not your religion that prompts you to believe that flippant personal insults and dismissals constitute productive debate.

Please try to tackle the speech rather than the speaker.

Otherwise, I predict (with a high degree of both scientific and spiritual certainty) that you will take some time off from the forum.


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    Trust me.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by simple, posted 05-01-2006 11:56 PM simple has not yet responded

      
    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 18249
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 32 of 77 (308504)
    05-02-2006 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by simple
    05-02-2006 12:14 AM


    Re: Let's try again to answer the questions ...
    I noticed that you responded to the {Age Correlations, step by step}. If you agree we can move that to the {Great Debate} forum and waive the "rules" of the science forums.

    This post is too long, I'll cut it off here.

    It is long because you refuse to {answer\clarify\resolve} issues with your assertions in previous posts while continually adding new assertions.

    If we can {answer\clarify\resolve} those old issues then we can move on to new ones without more clutter.

    Says who? This is about what it is about, not what you dictate.

    It is about you supporting and defending your arguments rather than make reckless statement after reckless statement.

    Of course, if you won't defend your arguments after they have been shown to be erroneous, or after serious problems with them have been pointed out, that is your choice - it leaves your arguments in a "refuted until new defense provided" status.

    The only other logical conclusion is that you can't defend your assertions, rather than won't. Your choice.

    Take it as chop suey if you want. I'll take it that the question if there ever was one was vague.

    I'll take it that every single undefended (reckless) assertion your have made that has been {criticized\critiqued\refuted} is in a "refuted until new defense provided" status. Not because I am mean spirited or callous, but because you have abandoned the (reckless) assertions that you have not defended.

    Great, so next time they say our galaxy will crash into another,

    I know of no scientific prediction that our galaxy will "crash" into another - can you give me an instance of this? Which galaxy and at what future time would also be welcome. Otherwise this is just speculation that you are equating (falsely) with science.

    ... or the sun burn out one day ...

    That is a scientific prediction based on the amount of Hydrogen in the sun, as are the stages that the sun would go through before then. Those predictions are based on observations of other stars similar in size and composition to the sun. It is also not anything we need to worry about for several millennia.

    I like real prophesy, like in the bible. It is so much better than ignorance and beliefs. It is so right on, and 100 % true so far, that there isn't hardly any belief required. More like history.

    Another reckless statement? Strangely I am unaware of a single significant prediction of any consequence. Perhaps someone of your expertise could provide an example of a prediction that {X} will happen at {Y} time and location, and then show me that this specific {X} indeed did happen in {Y} time and location?

    Remember that you think I have trouble connecting the dots, so I will need direct correlations of {X} in one to {X} in the other and of {Y} in one to {Y} in the other.

    Great, eh?
    I don't know much about religion, so you'll have to work through your own problems.

    Does this mean you are not an expert on prophesy and thus cannot provide the example requested above?

    I also notice that you did not address the issue of conflicts between different faiths. Equivocating on the term "religion" doesn't answer the question on these conflicts.

    My personal feelings have nothing to do with it. It is the word of God, and the huge limits of science that give me authority.

    In other words you cannot demonstrate that two people - even of the same faith - are talking about the same god no matter how much they think they are.

    So what? Are you insinuating most men are mad?

    Nope. Delusional at best, and only those who are irrational, such as those that believe that the earth is flat and the sun orbits around it. Such as those that ignore and deny evidence that is available. If what you believe is contradicted by evidence it is irrational to continue to believe it. If you continue to believe it in spite of the evidence then you are being irrational.

    Belief is religion. Projecting present science in the past or future is belief.

    Nope. As already demonstrated before (are you ignoring the evidence? Or is this just where you stopped reading?) science involves predictions and testing:

    RAZD, msg 25 writes:

    Science involves several elements, observation, hypothesis, prediction, testing, revisions = new cycle of observation, hypothesis, prediction, testing ... it is a never ending cycle, and part of that cycle is predictions about what future results will involve.

    This is not belief, it is logic -- IF {A} is true THEN {B} will happen and {C} will NOT happen.

    Science is willing and able to wait for the results to see if theory {A} is invalidated by future observations, but until then it operates on the observation and accumulated evidence that such invalidation has not occurred yet so {A} is tentatively accepted as valid as long as {B} keeps happening and {C} does not happen -- because the evidence points that way.


    It doesn't matter whether that prediction is about what happened in the past or what may happen in the future, theory {A} is tentatively accepted as valid as long as {B} keeps happening and {C} does not happen -- because the evidence points that way.

    Belief would mean believing a theory is still true after it has been invalidated. Science doesn't do that.

    There was no radioactive decay in the past. There will be none in the fiuture. The daughter material you see you think decayed was already there, as the decay process began thousands of years ago. It never got there by decay, and of course we know it now does. But the process itself changed, it never used to be a decay process at all.

    More reckless assertions. You really should have read Radiometric Dating -
    A Christian Perspective, by Dr. Roger C. Wiens
    . Even just the intro and overview sections.

    There is no evidence of any of the half-lives changing over time. In fact, as discussed below, they have been observed to not change at all over hundreds of thousands of years.

    Ignoring the evidence, denial of the evidence, does not make the evidence go away.

    There is no evidence of any change in the radioactive decay of elements. The ratio of parent to daughter elements and isotopes gives the same age for the earth for several different dating systems. Either we have radioactive decay operating in the past in the same way as today or we have God=Loki.

    This post is too long, I'll cut it off here.

    Conveniently so you don't have to defend any other reckless statements?

    Just remember that I'll take it that every single undefended (reckless) assertion your have made that has been {criticized\critiqued\refuted} is in a "refuted until new defense provided" status.

    This applies to the rest of the post that you skip here -- because you have abandoned the (reckless) assertions that you have not defended.

    Enjoy.


    www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1157&m=1>Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

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    RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by simple, posted 05-02-2006 12:14 AM simple has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 33 by simple, posted 06-03-2006 9:50 PM RAZD has not yet responded
     Message 34 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 10:06 PM RAZD has not yet responded

      
    simple 
    Inactive Suspended Member


    Message 33 of 77 (317372)
    06-03-2006 9:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by RAZD
    05-02-2006 12:55 PM


    Re: Let's try again to answer the questions ...
    ??? Why is this stuff supposed to be a reply to me?

    Later on====
    Oh, I see what is going on here, they tar whisper with the simple brush. Now I have been around a bit. There was a 'dad; over on christianforums who posted I think it was said as one of the 'simple's' here at one time. He would be the one to take care of Razd, not me.

    Edited by whisper, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by RAZD, posted 05-02-2006 12:55 PM RAZD has not yet responded

      
    lfen
    Member (Idle past 2055 days)
    Posts: 2189
    From: Oregon
    Joined: 06-24-2004


    Message 34 of 77 (317377)
    06-03-2006 10:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by RAZD
    05-02-2006 12:55 PM


    [uh oh is simple back?]
    There was no radioactive decay in the past. There will be none in the fiuture. The daughter material you see you think decayed was already there, as the decay process began thousands of years ago. It never got there by decay, and of course we know it now does. But the process itself changed, it never used to be a decay process at all.

    Everytime I see this patented, trademarked, copywrited refutation of science based on the assertion that the laws of the universe have changed since the Fall, or Flood, or whenever I think simple is back and up to his stupid debate tricks again.

    If it isn't him, then someone is cloning his gimmick.

    lfen


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by RAZD, posted 05-02-2006 12:55 PM RAZD has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by MangyTiger, posted 06-03-2006 10:11 PM lfen has responded

      
    MangyTiger
    Member (Idle past 3732 days)
    Posts: 989
    From: Leicester, UK
    Joined: 07-30-2004


    Message 35 of 77 (317380)
    06-03-2006 10:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 34 by lfen
    06-03-2006 10:06 PM


    Re: [uh oh is simple back?]
    If you hover your mouse pointer over whisper's name on one of his posts it will show that it is indeed just an alias of simple (and arkathon and...)


    Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 10:06 PM lfen has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 10:28 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

        
    lfen
    Member (Idle past 2055 days)
    Posts: 2189
    From: Oregon
    Joined: 06-24-2004


    Message 36 of 77 (317393)
    06-03-2006 10:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by MangyTiger
    06-03-2006 10:11 PM


    Re: [uh oh is simple back?]
    Ack, you are right! I never knew about that extremely handy feature. Thanks!

    Well, I'll waste no more time with him. I thought he had been permantly banned for his reliance on last thursdayism?

    lfen


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by MangyTiger, posted 06-03-2006 10:11 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by DrJones*, posted 06-03-2006 10:31 PM lfen has not yet responded
     Message 38 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2006 8:43 PM lfen has not yet responded

      
    DrJones*
    Member
    Posts: 1645
    From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Joined: 08-19-2004


    Message 37 of 77 (317394)
    06-03-2006 10:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by lfen
    06-03-2006 10:28 PM


    Re: [uh oh is simple back?]
    I thought he had been permantly banned for his reliance on last thursdayism?

    simple was suspended and he just kept re-registering under new names.


    Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
    If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
    *not an actual doctor
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 10:28 PM lfen has not yet responded

      
    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 18249
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 38 of 77 (318129)
    06-05-2006 8:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by lfen
    06-03-2006 10:28 PM


    Re: [uh oh is simple back?]
    I never knew about that extremely handy feature. Thanks!

    Yes it's a cutie. You call also click on the {PROFILE} button to see the whole list:

    14gipper
    arkathon
    cosmo
    cuddles
    relative
    sciguy
    simple
    sounder

    You can also click on the name and you will get a list of the sites where the person has been posting. You can get an idea of their interests from the list, and also of their relative responsiveness by the number of "yes"es for responses unanswered.

    banned for his reliance on last thursdayism?

    Maybe every thursday he is reincarnated ...?


    Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand

    RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by lfen, posted 06-03-2006 10:28 PM lfen has not yet responded

      
    Portillo
    Member (Idle past 1539 days)
    Posts: 258
    Joined: 11-14-2010


    Message 39 of 77 (665149)
    06-08-2012 6:42 PM


    I thought that the only people who doubted evolution were fundies from Alabama?

    http://www.nature.com/...ders-to-creationist-demands-1.10773
    http://ncse.com/...06/creationist-success-south-korea-007434


    Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by dwise1, posted 06-08-2012 7:30 PM Portillo has not yet responded
     Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-08-2012 8:17 PM Portillo has responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 2725
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 40 of 77 (665151)
    06-08-2012 7:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Portillo
    06-08-2012 6:42 PM


    Oh no, not at all. In fact, the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), who literally wrote the book of "creation science", was originally based in Southern California east of San Diego (just down the street from a stone carver who, I would assume, gave them good rates on millstones).

    Obviously, "creation science" is a purely American product, the factors of whose creation do include American fundamentalist sects (your reference to Alabama), but also the history of the anti-evolution movement in the USA from the 1920's on, and the US court system that they need to circumvent and the US public they need to deceive.

    But there's no reason to assume that it nor the fundamentalist sects would remain isolated to the USA. Aggressive missionary work ensures that that won't be the case. The ICR's monthly newsletter, Acts & Facts, would always carry stories of their missionary efforts in several other countries to spread their "gospel" of "creation science."

    Plus, there are also Islamic creationists. Not of the same school as the ICR, I would assume, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have plagarized^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hresearched something from the ICR.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Portillo, posted 06-08-2012 6:42 PM Portillo has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by dwise1, posted 06-16-2012 4:02 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

        
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 15728
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 3.1


    (1)
    Message 41 of 77 (665158)
    06-08-2012 8:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Portillo
    06-08-2012 6:42 PM


    I thought that the only people who doubted evolution were fundies from Alabama?

    As with (apparently) most of the things you think, this is not the case. Obviously mere geographical location doesn't prevent fundies from being wrong about evolution, otherwise you could cure 'em of it with a plane ticket.

    Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Portillo, posted 06-08-2012 6:42 PM Portillo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by Portillo, posted 06-16-2012 7:28 PM Dr Adequate has responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 2725
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 42 of 77 (665729)
    06-16-2012 4:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by dwise1
    06-08-2012 7:30 PM


    Just a follow-up to my post:

    But there's no reason to assume that it nor the fundamentalist sects would remain isolated to the USA. Aggressive missionary work ensures that that won't be the case. The ICR's monthly newsletter, Acts & Facts, would always carry stories of their missionary efforts in several other countries to spread their "gospel" of "creation science."

    Huffington Post posted on 14 Jun 2012 the article, Creationists In South Korea Force Removal Of Evolution From High-School Textbooks. In that article:

    quote:
    According to Nature.com, a group called the Society for Textbook Revise mounted an effective petition drive and is claiming credit for the removal of the evolution "error" from student's textbooks in order to "correct" their understanding of the world.
    . . .

    According to Newser, the Society For Textbook Revise was set up in the 1980s by the US Institute for Creation Research when Christianity spread across South Korea.



    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by dwise1, posted 06-08-2012 7:30 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

        
    Portillo
    Member (Idle past 1539 days)
    Posts: 258
    Joined: 11-14-2010


    Message 43 of 77 (665744)
    06-16-2012 7:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
    06-08-2012 8:17 PM


    Obviously mere geographical location doesn't prevent fundies from being wrong about evolution, otherwise you could cure 'em of it with a plane ticket.

    The official caricature of creationists is that it only exists in a small minority of fundies in the South and that it doesnt exist anywhere else in the world. Even though two of the biggest creation organisations, CMI and Answers in Genesis were started in Australia not USA.


    Can thine heart endure or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-08-2012 8:17 PM Dr Adequate has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-16-2012 9:32 PM Portillo has not yet responded
     Message 45 by dwise1, posted 06-17-2012 5:15 AM Portillo has not yet responded

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 15728
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 3.1


    (1)
    Message 44 of 77 (665752)
    06-16-2012 9:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Portillo
    06-16-2012 7:28 PM


    The official caricature of creationists is that it only exists in a small minority of fundies in the South and that it doesnt exist anywhere else in the world.

    I wasn't aware that the Federal Bureau Of Satire And Caricature had agreed on an official standard.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by Portillo, posted 06-16-2012 7:28 PM Portillo has not yet responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 2725
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 45 of 77 (665767)
    06-17-2012 5:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 43 by Portillo
    06-16-2012 7:28 PM


    Yet again, "creation science" is a purely American product, born uniquely out of the religious, political, and judicial environment of the USA. From there it was exported to other countries.

    If you want to try to make a case about fundamentalist Christian and creationist movements in other countries, then you also need to provide information about their formation and developmental histories.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by Portillo, posted 06-16-2012 7:28 PM Portillo has not yet responded

        
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