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Author Topic:   Hammer found in Cretaceous layer
joz
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 160 (185957)
02-16-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Quetzal
02-02-2005 1:19 PM


I'm no geologist, but I wasn't aware you could use C-14 dating on metal? I'm sure the author simply mis-stated, but since we pride ourselves on clear and factual refutations of creationist nonsense, this is a pretty big one, IMO.
If it was wrought iron, smelted using charcoal the C14 C12 ratios would presumably be the same as the charcoal itself (being the source of the carbon, and therefore testable....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Quetzal, posted 02-02-2005 1:19 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Quetzal, posted 02-17-2005 8:41 AM joz has replied
 Message 149 by Coragyps, posted 02-17-2005 9:26 AM joz has replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 160 (186168)
02-17-2005 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Quetzal
02-17-2005 8:41 AM


I was just speculating based on what I knew of radiocarbon dating and historical metalsmithing methods....
However a search got me this...
Page not found | Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
AMS RADIOCARBON DATING OF MODERN STEELS AND ANCIENT IRON ARTIFACTS: A NEW CARBON EXTRACTION METHOD IN USE AT LLNL
UCRL: JC-138722
Authors: Andrea Cook, Earth and Environmental Division
Presenting: Thursday, 2:00pm - 2:45pm
Abstract:
A new sealed double tube combustion method was developed at LLNL to extract carbon from modern steels and ancient iron artifacts. Iron samples were chemically pretreated with 10% nitric acid, vacuum sealed in 6mm quartz tubes with CuO, double tubed in vacuum sealed 9mm quartz tubes, and combusted at 1100C for a minimum of 10 hours. The resulting CO2 was then graphitized routinely using hydrogen reduction with a cobalt catalyst (Vogel et al., 1989). Since only 1mg of carbon is required for AMS, small iron samples can be analyzed (50mg of a 2.0%C iron or 1g of a 0.1%C iron). After the initial developmental phase, carbon yields of 100% were consistently obtained. The radiocarbon age of modern high carbon steel manufactured using only coal as the carbon source was determined to be approximately 39,000 450 BP, indicating that very little contamination is introduced during the sample preparation process. Since the Iron Age began less than 5,000 years ago, the background uncertainties should introduce errors of no more than 40 years in the radiocarbon ages for actual artifacts. Several ancient iron artifacts of known date were analyzed to demonstrate that the new methodology is robust and can be successfully used to obtain the date of manufacture for any iron object, provided that it was made exclusively using charcoal that is contemporaneous with the manufacture of the object. We anticipate that this methodology will be particularly useful to archeologists who currently rely on context to date iron artifacts.
[pats self on back]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Quetzal, posted 02-17-2005 8:41 AM Quetzal has replied

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joz
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 160 (186170)
02-17-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Coragyps
02-17-2005 9:26 AM


Yep the c14 dating would work for most wrought iron (charcoal fueled smelting) but not for modern steels produced in a Bessemer converter, however you are bang on the money wrought iron and modern steels can be told apart quite easily...
*edited for accuracy replaced blast furnace with Bessemer converter*
This message has been edited by joz, 02-18-2005 00:54 AM

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