Hammer found in Cretaceous layer

"Taken to NASA for dating" = "Showed it to the dude who empties the space toilets and asked him to guess how many millions of years old it was."

1. So you are telling me that someone jammed this hammer into the side of a cliff? The metal was completely encased. Aren't some fossils found the same way (chipping at the side of a cliff in X layer)?2. What about the unique metallurgy of the iron? It can only be reproduced today on the molecular level. Doesn't that kinda refute the (its just an old hammer that someone mashed into the side of a cliff) argument, since nobody in recent times could make iron of that quality (with chlorine in it no less)?So far I've presented you with hard facts, and all you have presented me with is ideas of how it got there, and no counter facts.This message has been edited by Tal, 01-06-2005 04:36 AM

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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So you are telling me that someone jammed this hammer into the side of a cliff? The metal was completely encased. Aren't some fossils found the same way (chipping at the side of a cliff in X layer)?

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It was not found IN a layer - it was found in a loose nodule. Yes fossile are necessarily foudn in layers, but as I mentioned above, the fact that the nodulke with the wood does not actually appear to have been attached to the cliff seems to have been conveniently forgottem.

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2. What about the unique metallurgy of the iron? It can only be reproduced today on the molecular level. Doesn't that kinda refute the (its just an old hammer that someone mashed into the side of a cliff) argument, since nobody in recent times could make iron of that quality (with chlorine in it no less)?

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Well have you? You are merely parrotting assertions you cannot back up. I'm not sure what "reproduced at the molecular level" means, and am not clear what the basis for believeing the hammer has unusual metallurgy either, seeing as it has not been tested by a reputable lab. Its a totally unsubstantiated claim. As you will see from the link I provided offers have been made to get it tested and these were refused.

Battelle Labs WebsiteThe chemistry aspect of it is that you cannot mix iron and chlorine.If we could duplicate this, we would all be driving around in cars made of Iron that wouldn't rust.This message has been edited by Tal, 01-06-2005 05:08 AM

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

But DID Batelle analyse the hammer ?From http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm

Of course you can. Chlorine is an exceptionally corrosive and highly reactive element. You can mix chlorine with just about anything that's not inert, especially iron. When you mix chlorine with iron you get a metallic salt. And did you know the automobile and petroleum industries are conspiring to keep technology for 100 mpg cars out of consumers' hands? And that we have a member right here at EvC Forum who's invented a perpetual motion machine, but hasn't been able to bring it to market? And that magnetic bracelets can cure a wide variety of ills? And that chirpractors can cure the common cold?Tal, a little skepticism is called for on such claims. We have these facts:

1. Baugh claims his hammer invalidates scientifically accepted dating chronologies.
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2. Baugh claims his hammer has a high-tech metalurgy that cannot be duplicated.
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3. Baugh won't make his hammer available for outside analysis.

Just that last fact should set off alarm bells in your head, especially when combined with Baugh's other wild claims, such as man and dinosaur footprints found together that not even the Institute for Creation Research buys into. From just this information alone it shouldn't be necessary to consider any of the other details, unless you really enjoy wild goose chases and have an abundance of spare time. Before you waste too much time, consider that archeology has found no other artifacts from this civilization that produced this uncorrosible iron, not even more of this iron whose mysterious qualities mean that all of it ever produced should still be around.Perhaps crazy Carl has happened upon a find that could revolutionize history and metalurgy, but science advances by allowing other scientists to replicate your work, not by keeping your secrets locked in a drawer. Carl keeps his hammer under lock and key because he knows that independent findings, whatever they might be, would definitely not agree with him.Consider which is more likely:

• A hundred or two years ago a prospector's hammer inadvertently fell from a wagon or beast and burden and lay hidden and undiscovered for a long time. Seepage of water laden with metallic salts from the local ores precipitated onto the hammer over the years. Weathering eventually caused the nodule with the hammer to break free and become visible to passersby.
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  Or...
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• Carl Baugh has discovered a hammer that invalidates all historical chronologies, radiometric dating, cosmological dating, and much of the rest of physics, but he won't let us study it.

--Percy

How about we settle the composition of this hammer once and for all.
I have a state of the art facility right here where the chemical composition of the hammer can be analyzed.I have 3 different types of mass spectrometer, XRay flourescence (XRF) and Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis In the labs that I run at the University of Missouri. I also have access to Nuclear Magnetic Resonance equipment.I make this offer to you.Persuade this guy to let us analyze the hammer and I will do it for free. I will also allow anyone you like to come in and watch the entire process to make sure that the data isn't being mis-represented.
After all this is done I will co-author a scientific paper with the meteorite's owner (no matter what the outcome) and submit it to as many scientific journals as will accept it.I can't be any fairer than that can I?PYIncidently I have done quite a bit of work for NASA in the past (meteorites and stuff) too.

Would you consider formally making this offer to Baugh's Creation Evidence Museum (Creation Evidence Museum of Texas)?By the way, and someone may already have mentioned this, there's a possibility that the hammer's handle has already been radiocarbon dated to be younger than 700 years old, but this is considered unconfirmed. This is mentioned at http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm, among others.--Percy

Sure I would.I am only talking about the chemical composition here though. I don't have the equipment or expertise to date the thing. (actually I probably do have the equipment with the nuclear reactor to do Ar/Ar but I wouldn't know the first thing about applying it)
I can give a complete breakdown of the Cl, Fe and all the other stuff that would make this a 'novel' kind of iron and all I need is a half gram sliver of metal taken from a tiny hole drilled into the hammer head. There's no point trying to analyze the surface as that will have been hopelessly contaminated by exposure to the natural environment.PY

Purple, if it were up to me I'd definately let you, because I want to know too.I will do more homework on it later that requires more that simply googling "topic." Of course it will take me awhile, combat zone and all.And if you would like to pursue it yourself (analyzing the hammer) would you try emailing the museum? All they can tell you is no.This is where part of me wishes I won the lottery, then I could spend the next 12 years getting various degrees in these fields and researching this stuff myself.But, gotta feed the family, and college doesn't do that. And the whole GWOT thing.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Tal Know the feeling. Most of my college years were completed while I already had a family. However it was well worth the effort and sacrifice to get to where I am now.The reason that I suggested that you also contact the museum is that they may be a bit more open to the suggestion if it comes from a creationist. I think that their response to me will be a resounding NO. But what the heck? I may as well give it a try.PY

So, what you're saying is that they possessed a metalurgic technology far beyond anything we believe to be possible with the laws of chemistry......yet, in regards to toolmaking, they weren't any better than the toolsmiths of the 1800's? I mean, look at this hammer. It's a piece of junk. Why would they take a head made of their supermetal, and then jam it onto a crude wooden handle? Why doesn't it have a peen of any kind? A claw or a ball would have been considerably more useful; the claw for the removal of nails or the ball-peen for riveting.Modern hammers have steel shafts for strength, or composite materials for flexability, so that the shock of hammering is not conducted into the user's hand. You're telling me that they invented a metal that defies all physics, but they didn't happen to discover fiberglass along the way? Please. If this is some kind of futuristic super-hammer then why is it such a piece of shit?

Right, I understand. I mentioned the possible dating of the handle only to complete the list of analyses that are mentioned on the Internet, the other being the supposed analysis of the hammer's head by Batelle Labs.Let me know if you need any help contacting them. It would be nice if we could track the dialogue in this or another thread.--Percy

If you won the lottery, you'd spend your time investigating extraordinary claims? That sounds like a pretty good thing, following on the lead of James Randi, Michael Shermer and the late Martin Gardener.When Schliemann discovered Troy, did he say "I'm not saying where it is and I'm keeping all the artifacts to myself and not letting anyone else study them?" When Champollion deciphered the Rosetta Stone, did he keep it secret by saying, "I will be the only person translating Egyptian hieroglyphics, and you'll just have to trust what I say about them?"Of course they didn't. They announced the details of their discoveries to the world and invited review and analysis.You don't need to investigate Carl's claims to know they're false. If they were true he'd make the hammer available for study. I invite you to try to help Purple gain access for study - perhaps it will take being ignored or refused by Carl before you'll believe he just makes it up.--Percy

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Why would they take a head made of their supermetal, and then jam it onto a crude wooden handle?

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You forget that wood made great handles until the Fall^TM, after which mutations made wood into a less than perfect tool making material.But in all seriousness, Percy has hit the nail on the head. In all research your findings and materials must be available to ANYONE for analysis. I have personally sent plasmids, bacterial strains, etc. to other labs that wanted to check or duplicate the work done in my lab. Baugh's reluctance to allow his hammer to be analyzed is perhaps the most telling clue.A question for Purple. Do you know if chlorine is a common additive in metallurgy? Think you could sneak in a hammer into the lab and check the composition and possibly even the "bubble" content?