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Author Topic:   Dating from the Adams and Eves Threads
mark24
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 256 of 300 (273990)
12-29-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-28-2005 7:40 PM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
Mini_Dikta,
Can we directly date most fossils or do we use the surrounding rock to date most fossils?
Surrounding igneous rock. ie Rocks that bracket the fossiliferous sedimentary rocks.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 12-28-2005 7:40 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5612 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 257 of 300 (274003)
12-29-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by edge
12-28-2005 9:27 PM


Edge,
A substantial fraction of the mass of the humic acids is in carboxylic
acid functional groups, which endow these molecules with the ability to
chelate positively charged multivalent ions (Mg++, Ca++, Fe++, most other
"trace elements" of value to plants, as well as other ions that have no
positive biological role, such as Cd++ and Pb++.)
Humic Acids
Irrelevant, for the reasons stated.
Humic acids present in a liquefaction anaerobic leachate "is relevant". It should raise flags in respect to leachate contamination of the humic mineral clays forming sediment glues by the processes of lithifaction. So the contaminated leachates removed and lithifaction sets, and the Evolutionists found something new to date. Creationists scientists have said to be wary of the evolutionists dating methods one reason given was leachate contamination.
Note: Pb++ that have no positive biological role are able to be chelated by humic acids. (meaning sediments glues are contaminated).
I'll agree that evolutionists are dating something, just not sure what.
Mini Ditka, message 244, writes:
Can we directly date most fossils or do we use the surrounding rock to date most fossils?
What Jon F. said:
JonF, message 247, writes:
It's even tougher than that; for the most part, we can't date the fossil materials nor can we date the rocks in which the fossils are found. Fossils are found in sedimentary rocks. We are interested in the time of lithification (oversimplifying, when the already-solid grains of those rocks got stuck together, not when the grains themselves formed). There are materials in many sedimentary rocks that form at lithification (e.g. xenotime), and there's been significant progress in dating rocks using those materials. But accurate radiometric dating of sedimentary rocks is not common.
P.S. Got to go things to do,
Enjoy!
Added the last (re: JonF) quote box and the message quoted information. Added the source information to the previous quote box also. - Adminnemooseus
edited to add: Note: Pb++ meaning lead that have no positive biological role are able to be chelated by humic acids. (meaning sediments glues are contaminated).
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-29-2005 10:14 PM
This message has been edited by The Golfer, 12-30-2005 10:06 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by edge, posted 12-28-2005 9:27 PM edge has replied

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edge
Member (Idle past 1727 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 258 of 300 (274013)
12-29-2005 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by johnfolton
12-29-2005 9:28 PM


Re:
Humic acids present in a liquefaction anaerobic leachate "is relevant". It should raise flags in respect to leachate contamination of the humic mineral clays forming sediment glues by the processes of lithifaction. So the contaminated leachates removed and lithifaction sets, and the Evolutionists found something new to date.
That is why we go to such great lengths to avoid contamination. Therefor your argument is irrelevant.
Creationists scientists have said to be wary of the evolutionists dating methods one reason given was leachate contamination.
So have mainstream scientists. The point is that YEC scientists don't really care about contamination. Why should they? Their agenda is to 'prove' the technique does not work.
I'll agree that evolutionists are dating something, just not sure what.
And I suppose it is just a coincidence that the dates correlate with varves and tree rings.
If contamination is as problematic as you state there should be NO systematics to any dating system. And yet, there is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by johnfolton, posted 12-29-2005 9:28 PM johnfolton has not replied

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 259 of 300 (274058)
12-29-2005 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by johnfolton
12-27-2005 12:51 AM


Re: Where is the neutron?
The neutron appears to big to leave its nucleus, all thats leaving is gamma rays, electrons, etc... You did say it takes a neutron and nitrogen to form C14?
I'm sorry but this is utterly ridiculous.
I make my living by accurately measuring the neutron flux leaving atoms. That is how a reactor works.
We use the neutron flux to create new isotopes all the time. We combine these radioactive isotopes with organic ligands to make drugs to combat cancer.
My job is most often to measure the exact isotopic concentrations of samples which we put into the reactor, both before and after irradiation by thermal neutrons, without which neuclear fission would not be possible. I measure these with a bank of highly accurate mass spectrometers.
No matter what you think, you are quite obviously not a nuclear phycisist. neutrons can and do leave atomic nuclei. They do so in a highly predictable (statistically) manner. One of my other jobs is to develop computer software to accurately predict the outcome of these irradiations. When the predictions accurately mirror the actual results, we can be pretty darn sure that the reactions are going exactly as planned.
As I told you before, there is no gray area here. We know exactly what is going on with nuclear decay reactions. It has been extremely well measured and documented. You can bury your head in the sand, stick your fingers in your ears and pretend you don't hear what we are all telling you but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
Neutrons do leave nuclei of some atoms!
Nitrogen 14 does accept a neutron then emit a proton and a gamma ray to leave Carbon 14. We have measured it, simulated it and artificially recreated it until we are blue in the face. IT HAPPENS Deal!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2005 12:51 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by johnfolton, posted 12-30-2005 12:41 AM PurpleYouko has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5612 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 260 of 300 (274064)
12-30-2005 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by PurpleYouko
12-29-2005 11:43 PM


PurpleYouko,
I have no problem by commercial grade isotopes like 252Cf that has a half life of 2.65 years you would beable to convert N14 to C14. I'm sure you know how a reactor works and have no problems your using your reactor to produce isotopes.
All I seen however documented in the natural however is that uranium decaying producing helium and then giving off gamma rays. Another problem mentioned is that neutrons can only move a couple of centimeters in the air and the absorption problem (Jon F. too mentioned (the self shielding problem of the sediment particle).
Were not talking a half life of 2.65 years but extremely large volumes of time in the natural. Another problem is that uranium when it does decay its decaying into helium then gives off gamma rays.
Edge provided a link saying portable sources can not provide thermal neutrons.
Golfers link said: Because of their charge and large mass, alpha rays are easily absorbed by materials and can travel only a few centimeters in air. They can be absorbed by tissue paper or the outer layers of human skin (about 40 micrometres, equivalent to a few cells deep) and so are not generally dangerous to life unless the source is ingested or inhaled.
Alpha particle - Wikipedia
edges link said: First, any practical portable neutron source will not provide you with thermal neutrons.Commercially available sources of neutrons include 252Cf that normally undergoes an alpha decay, but has about 3% of its decays through spontaneous fission.
Not Found
Jon F said: alpha, beta or gamma activity is counted, and divided by the total number of radioactive atoms. Among the difficulties of this approach are the self-shielding of finite-thickness solid samples
This message has been edited by The Golfer, 12-30-2005 12:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-29-2005 11:43 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by edge, posted 12-30-2005 10:00 AM johnfolton has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 300 (274122)
12-30-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by nwr
12-29-2005 4:42 PM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
In fact, radioactive decay has been extensively observed and investigated, and has been should to alway be an exponential decay. That is, the rate of decay is proportional to the amount of the material present.
Well, the idea is to find out when the clock began ticking, right? The clock is the radiation. So if you pick up a rock, it's already been emiting radiation a long time. How do you know when it started?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by nwr, posted 12-29-2005 4:42 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by nwr, posted 12-30-2005 8:51 AM robinrohan has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 262 of 300 (274123)
12-30-2005 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by robinrohan
12-30-2005 8:42 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
Well, the idea is to find out when the clock began ticking, right?
Radiation began when those atoms came into existence.
So if you pick up a rock, it's already been emiting radiation a long time. How do you know when it started?
The dating of rocks depends on radioactive decay that leaves byproducts behind in the rock. Then a measurement of the ratio of the undecayed atoms still in the rock and the amount of byproduct gives you how much decay there has been since the rock solidified. Using that, together with the known decay rate and the equations of decay, you can compute the time of solidification.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 8:42 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 8:59 AM nwr has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 300 (274124)
12-30-2005 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by nwr
12-30-2005 8:51 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
The dating of rocks depends on radioactive decay that leaves byproducts behind in the rock. Then a measurement of the ratio of the undecayed atoms still in the rock and the amount of byproduct gives you how much decay there has been since the rock solidified.
How do you identify these byproducts? Do we call the byproduct, in the case of Potassium 40, Argon?
Using that, together with the known decay rate and the equations of decay, you can compute the time of solidification.
Yes, but I'm trying to figure out how they came up with the known decay rate in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 Message 262 by nwr, posted 12-30-2005 8:51 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 264 of 300 (274138)
12-30-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by robinrohan
12-30-2005 8:42 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
So if you pick up a rock, it's already been emiting radiation a long time. How do you know when it started?
That's a very difficult question to answer briefly.
The radiation started when the atoms were created, in the heart of some supernova. That's not when the radiometric clock started.
There are many different radiometric methods. All of them depend on the premise that radioactive decay rates have been constant. There are many, many excellent theoretical and experimental reasons to believe that this is true. Sylas summarized some in Message 12, and there's some discussion and references at Claim CF210.
Simple accumulation methods are based on the additional premises that, when the rock solidified, there was none of the daughter product (that is, the element that is produced when the parent isotope decays) present and there was no gain or loss of daugher product other than by radioactive decay (that is, "closed system"). These turn out to be true most of the time in the case when the daughter product is a gas (like argon) that easily escapes liquids, and samples are chosen with reasonable common sense (e.g. don't test the weathered outer surface of a rock). We know that these are true most of the time because so many simple accumulation measurements agree with the more sophisticated methods. Potassium-argon is about the only simple accumulation method used, because it's well understood, low cost, and almost always accurate. It's common to cross-check potassium-argon results with another method. Creationist criticism of radiometric dating is almost exclusively confined to simple accumulation methods.
By far the most commonly used methods are age-diagnostic methods. These do not depend on the closed-system premise listed above, and most do not depend on the zero-initial-daughter premise listed above. Age-diagnostic methods produce an age (or fail to do so) and an indication of how reliable that age is. All of them indicate when the system has not been closed, and some of them can produce a valid age even when the system has not been closed. All of them work this "magic" by making use of extra information that is not used in simple accumulation methods. Isochron methods use the fact that, in suitable systems, there is an isotope of the daughter element that is not produced by radioactive decay. When several sample points fail to plot as a straight line on an appropriate graph, the system has been opened and no date is produced. The argon-argon method uses incremental heating to release differently-bound samples from one rock, and compares the results to a rock of known age. When the results do not plot as a horizontal line on an appropriate graph, the system has been open; but if a large portion of the results are on a horizontal line, a valid age is produced. The most widely used method, U-Pb concordia-discordia, uses two similar but different radioactive decay systems (238U and 235U) and compares the results of the two methods. The results are presented on a graph called a "concordia diagram"; if the results do not fall on a predetermined concordia curve, the system has been opened; but if the results fall on a straight line, the upper intersection of this straight line with the concordia curve is a valid age.
Of the above-mentioned methods, only the concordia-discordia method presumes that none of the daughter product (lead) is present when the rock solidifies. Lucky for us there are several minerals that so strongly reject lead at solidification that it's physically impossible to get one that had a noticeable amount of lead at solidification, and one of these minerals (zircon) is found in all sorts of different rocks and has several other properties that make it convenient for radiometric dating. Even the creationist RATE group admits that, when lead is found in zircons, it is the result of radioactive decay:
quote:
Samples 1 through 3 had helium retentions of 58, 27, and 17 percent. The fact that these percentages are high confirms that a large amount of nuclear decay did indeed occur in the zircons. Other evidence strongly supports much nuclear decay having occurred in the past [14, pp. 335-337]. We emphasize this point because many creationists have assumed that "old" radioisotopic ages are merely an artifact of analysis, not really indicating the occurrence of large amounts of nuclear decay. But according to the measured amount of lead physically present in the zircons, approximately 1.5 billion years worth ” at today’s rates ” of nuclear decay occurred. Supporting that, sample 1 still retains 58% of all the alpha particles (the helium) that would have been emitted during this decay of uranium and thorium to lead.
(Humphreys, D.R.; S.A. Austin; J.R. Baumgardner and A.A. Snelling, "Helium Diffusion Rates Support Accelerated Nuclear Decay," Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Creationism, R. Ivey (ed.), Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, PA. Error | The Institute for Creation Research)
All of these age-diagnostic systems can be fooled by low probability occurences, so some of our dates may be wrong (although the extensive cross-checking makes even this unlikely). But there's no possibility that all or even many of our dates are wrong.
Why and how these methods work as they do is more complex than can be gone into in this medium. Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective is an excellent overview with more detail than I can present here. Isochron Dating is a moderately technical exposition of, duh, isochron dating. There's a seriously technical exposition of concordia-discordia dating at THE U-TH-PB SYSTEM: ZIRCON DATING.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 8:42 AM robinrohan has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 265 of 300 (274139)
12-30-2005 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by robinrohan
12-30-2005 8:59 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
How do you identify these byproducts?
From nuclear chemistry - potassium decays to argon, rubidium to strontium, samarium to neodymium....etc.
Yes, but I'm trying to figure out how they came up with the known decay rate in the first place.
By actually measuring it in the lab - the pdf that JonF linked tells exactly how. And they knew which elements to look at from work going back to Marie Curie. Any element that gives off radiation has a half-life - it's just that only a few occur naturally and have long enough half-lives to use for dating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 8:59 AM robinrohan has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 266 of 300 (274142)
12-30-2005 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by robinrohan
12-30-2005 8:59 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
The dating of rocks depends on radioactive decay that leaves byproducts behind in the rock. Then a measurement of the ratio of the undecayed atoms still in the rock and the amount of byproduct gives you how much decay there has been since the rock solidified.
How do you identify these byproducts? Do we call the byproduct, in the case of Potassium 40, Argon?
Yes, Argon is a byproduct of Potassium 40 decay. You determine byproducts by observing the decay in a lab.
Using that, together with the known decay rate and the equations of decay, you can compute the time of solidification.
Yes, but I'm trying to figure out how they came up with the known decay rate in the first place.
You can measure the decay rate in the lab. Admittedly, that is over a much shorter period of time. You don't need a very accurate to determine that the method could be used for dating. If your decay rate is inaccurate, the dating will be inaccurate. This would give you a clock that can determine dates with high precision, but with a possible systematic error due to an inaccurate decay rate.
Once you start using it for dating rocks, you can cross-check with dates determined by other methods of known accuracy. This is considered to be calibration of the measuring method. The calibration eliminates the systematic error (from inaccurate decay rate), and thus allows you to compute a more accurate decay rate. This field calibration is an important aspect of radiometric dating methods.
Here is a web page with details on the dating method.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 8:59 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 9:46 AM nwr has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 267 of 300 (274143)
12-30-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by robinrohan
12-30-2005 8:59 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
Yes, but I'm trying to figure out how they came up with the known decay rate in the first place.
By observing and testing over the last 110 or so years, and from theoretical considerations. See the references on constant decay rate in my previous message. If you want to get some seriously heavy material, Modern Nuclear Chemistry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 8:59 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 300 (274146)
12-30-2005 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by nwr
12-30-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
You determine byproducts by observing the decay in a lab.
You can measure the decay rate in the lab
I'm assuming these are two different types of operations. It would have to be. Otherwise, the argument is circular.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by nwr, posted 12-30-2005 9:41 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by nwr, posted 12-30-2005 10:02 AM robinrohan has replied

edge
Member (Idle past 1727 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 269 of 300 (274153)
12-30-2005 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by johnfolton
12-30-2005 12:41 AM


Re:
Edge provided a link saying portable sources can not provide thermal neutrons.
Golfer, I'm not sure how to break this to you, but a coal seam is NOT a portable source.
The point of my reference was to show you that radon is a source of thermal neutrons. It is also a link in the uranium decay chain. It is also very mobile. And there is uranium in many coal beds.
THis is pretty basic stuff, Golfer. I really don't see why you should impose upon us to educate you to the most basic level of understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by johnfolton, posted 12-30-2005 12:41 AM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 270 of 300 (274155)
12-30-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by robinrohan
12-30-2005 9:46 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Fossils?
I'm assuming these are two different types of operations.
One is analyzing atoms, the other is using a clock and measuring masses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by robinrohan, posted 12-30-2005 9:46 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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