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Author Topic:   Destruction of Pompei is 1631 year.
elcano
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 91 of 132 (377821)
01-18-2007 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by PaulK
01-18-2007 2:20 AM


Re: I have a question.
From a site of the Italian volcanists.
The description of this eruption is made using the words of two witnesses of it: Giulio Cesare Recupito (De Vesuviano Incendio Nuntius) and Giulio Cesare Braccini (Dell'Incendio fattosi al Vesuvio a' XVI Dicembre 1631, e delle sue cause ed effetti).
THE NIGHT BETWEEN 15 AND 16 DECEMBER:
Recupito
Earthquakes, particularly strong occurred during that night when we thought the same city teared from its foundations.
For two days there were continuous tremors and frequent quakes: in the following five days the earthquake became less frequent until the all tragedy ended. In Naples, no house fell down but many were damaged. At Herculaneum, the palace of the Archbishop partially collapsed.

http://vulcan.fis.uniroma3.it/vesuvio/1631_engtext.html

What Herculaneum is in 1631? What the palace of the Archbishop is in Herculaneum?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 01-18-2007 2:20 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by AdminNosy, posted 01-18-2007 2:11 PM elcano has not yet responded
 Message 94 by anastasia, posted 01-18-2007 2:12 PM elcano has not yet responded
 Message 95 by PaulK, posted 01-18-2007 2:12 PM elcano has not yet responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3302 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 92 of 132 (377822)
01-18-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by PaulK
01-18-2007 2:20 AM


Re: I have a question.
PaulK writes:

Then you're in the wrong place. This board is devoted to discussion. If you only want to lecture to people - and if you won't deal with the evidence against your assertions - then this is no place for you.

The tactics of these 'history revisionists' are full of this skepticism and based on straw men...Pliny is in the way of their 'proof', so they first have to disprove Pliny; say he never existed, that he lived at another time, that he was writing about a different volcano.

Then you have the proof of the excavation site iteself. Gotta get rid of that...cite all kinds of examples of people who have planted 'fake' artifacts for archaelogists, deny the effectiveness of dating methods, claim that Latin was still a popular language in 1631. Sure some thing aren't provable beyond doubt...but the alternative theories of 'false' history and purposeful elongation of history by coniving humans is ridiculous, IMHO. There is no motivation for it, certainly not enough for a broad-scale cover-up such as these people imagine.


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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4751
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 93 of 132 (377827)
01-18-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by elcano
01-18-2007 1:48 PM


Responding to others
elcano, you are not responding to what others have posted. You have only a few more chances before you get a weeks suspension. There will be no more warnings.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by elcano, posted 01-18-2007 1:48 PM elcano has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3302 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 94 of 132 (377828)
01-18-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by elcano
01-18-2007 1:48 PM


Re: I have a question.
elcano writes:

The description of this eruption is made using the words of two witnesses of it:

Question; how do you decide to believe these witnesses and not to believe Pliny? That is the problem with this type of research...it is cafeteria style history, where you can pick out the witnesses YOU like.

At Herculaneum, the palace of the Archbishop

According to Wikipedia, no town has gone by the name of Herculaneum since 79. I am sure if we put our heads together we can discover why your witnesses say there was a town of Herculaneum. It might be simple...notice they say 'at' Herculaneum, and not 'in' Herculaneum. Almost like it was a site they were talking about, as in 'at the site of Herculaneum'. They DO say 'in' Naples. Here I WOULD like to see the original Italian (not Latin, btw! on this important document).

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 12438
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 95 of 132 (377829)
01-18-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by elcano
01-18-2007 1:48 PM


Re: I have a question.
I would suggest that it means that the palace was near the presumed site of Herculaneum. I note that you don't even attempt to deal with the stronger evidence against your position, so I can only presume that you are unable to answer it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by elcano, posted 01-18-2007 1:48 PM elcano has not yet responded

    
elcano
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 96 of 132 (377835)
01-18-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by dwise1
01-15-2007 6:16 PM


Re: Confused
Sixteen centuries has passed and has passed six years on five and year without one month
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elcano
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 97 of 132 (377840)
01-18-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
01-16-2007 5:24 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
I do not deny, that Pompeii could be destroyed before 1631. It have been possibly restored after destruction. However the old city should be under the city, that today is dug out. I approve, that dug out the city was lost in 1631.
We have books the eruptions of Vesuvius written by witnesses in 1631.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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elcano
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 98 of 132 (377843)
01-18-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by anastasia
01-17-2007 12:14 AM


Re: Translate or don't post
There is not Fomenko`s idea. This idea of Vesuvius being Sinaiis is N. A. Morosov (1854-1946)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by anastasia, posted 01-17-2007 12:14 AM anastasia has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12438
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 99 of 132 (377844)
01-18-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by elcano
01-18-2007 3:30 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
But the only city we seem to have is the old Roman city - which appears to have been destoryed somewhere around 79 AD. I haven't seen any archaeological evidence of reconstruction or any reports of reconstruction. Find those and you'll have a much better case.
This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 3302 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 100 of 132 (377845)
01-18-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by elcano
01-18-2007 3:30 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
elcano writes:

I approve, that dug out the city was lost in 1631.

So the city which we have as ruins is the same one that was lost in 1631? I do not understand your meaning. The cities were clearly not 'lost' in 1631, they were cleared and rebuilt.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 101 of 132 (378049)
01-19-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by anastasia
01-18-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Pliny the Younger.
The cities were clearly not 'lost' in 1631, they were cleared and rebuilt.

Nobody died in 1631. Bodies were buried in the ash in 79. They made casts of the cavities left by the bodies when they did the excavations.

http://www.jamesmdeem.com/books.ashbodies.htm
http://cruises.about.com/od/mediterraneancruises/ig/Pompeii/pompeii009.htm
http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/?t=780
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17290/17290-h/17290-h.htm#image22

Curiously none are wearing 1631 clothes.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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elcano
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 102 of 132 (378158)
01-19-2007 7:06 PM


for all
After thick layers of ash covered the two towns, they were abandoned and eventually their names and locations were forgotten. Then Herculaneum was rediscovered in 1738, and Pompeii in 1748.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii

However in 17 century still nobody forgot this name.
Authors written in 1631 about eruption of Vesuvius know a site Pompeii and Herculaneum.
http://mdz1.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00001438/images/index.html?id=00001438&fip=85.30.233.67&no=16&seite=198
http://libraries.luc.edu/about/exhibits/jesuits/1580.shtml
The text is written on a monument in Torre del Greco mentions Pompeii and Herculaneum.
http://www.torreomnia.com/Vesuvio/vesuvio_dicristo/vesuvio_dicristo2.htm

Have people forgotten about these cities or have not forgotten after eruption 79 years?


Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by dwise1, posted 01-19-2007 7:27 PM elcano has responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 103 of 132 (378166)
01-19-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by elcano
01-19-2007 7:06 PM


Re: for all
They knew the names from the ancient Roman histories which many, if not most, scholars had read or were at least familiar with. From those histories, they would have known about where the cities had been.

Much the same as with Troy, whose name and approximate location was known because of the Illiad. As with Pompeii and Herculeum (P&H), Troy was not forgotten because its story had been written down and survived to continue to be read centuries later. If they had relied solely on oral tradition then they would have been forgotten within a few generations, but having been written down enabled them to survive for thousands of years.

The main difference between Troy and P&H is that scholars weren't sure whether Troy had actually existed since it was told of in a literary work, whereas they were much more certain that P&H existed since they were described in actual histories.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by elcano, posted 01-19-2007 7:06 PM elcano has responded

Replies to this message:
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elcano
Member (Idle past 1602 days)
Posts: 60
From: Moscow
Joined: 01-12-2007


Message 104 of 132 (378186)
01-19-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by dwise1
01-19-2007 7:27 PM


Re: for all
I can agree with you. In that case the information of Wiki is not correct. There is no information in modern books that medieval authors mention Pompeii. (Why?)
This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 105 of 132 (378197)
01-19-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by elcano
01-19-2007 8:02 PM


Re: for all
There is no information in modern books that medieval authors mention Pompeii. (Why?)

Medieval == pre-Renaissance. What triggered the Renaissance was the rediscovery and reading of the ancient authors.

Plus, the works of medieval authors did not spread very far, because they pre-dated the printing press. Most medieval "authors" were more concerned with hand-copying the books that already existed.

The Renaissance did have printing presses, so there were a lot more authors and a lot more of their books printed and distributed. Plus, they had more ready access to the ancient authors (eg, from books written in Byzantium ("the Second Rome" in Russian Orthodoxy, the "Third Rome" being Moscow) and brought to the West by refugees.


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