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Author Topic:   Destruction of Pompei is 1631 year.
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 106 of 132 (378214)
01-19-2007 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by elcano
01-19-2007 8:02 PM


Re: for all
elcano writes:

I can agree with you. In that case the information of Wiki is not correct. There is no information in modern books that medieval authors mention Pompeii. (Why?)

That will only hurt you more than help you. If Pompeii was still in existance in 1631 you would want to prove that it was metioned in medieval books, or at least deicde when you think it was first built as a city..,

And RAZD is correct...nobody died in 1631, but many skeletons were found in Herculaneum. If you would like us to believe that Pompeii was destroyed in 1631 please explain how these bodies got there, how they died, when they died?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by elcano, posted 01-19-2007 8:02 PM elcano has not yet responded

    
maximo
Junior Member (Idle past 3747 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 107 of 132 (379648)
01-24-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AdminNosy
01-16-2007 5:59 PM


Re: Translate or don't post
me parece ignorante "castigar" breves mensajes en un idioma universal como el frances (o el español)

Me parece que pueden aportar mucho a los interesados.

Acepto la libertad del sitio de imponer reglas, pero esta limitacion significa una irrespetuosa discriminacion hacia otros navegantes ademas de menoscabar la cultura y conocimientos de los participantes

Un sitio de cultura, me parece, debe ser abierto y compartido por todos

Gracias, y adios, porque supongo que ya estare "suspendido"
Felicitaciones por el foro, que me parece excelente


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by AdminNosy, posted 01-16-2007 5:59 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by AdminQuetzal, posted 01-25-2007 7:51 AM maximo has not yet responded

    
AdminQuetzal
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 132 (379690)
01-25-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by maximo
01-24-2007 10:51 PM


Re: Translate or don't post
Lo siento, amigo, pero el problema no es que discriminamos contra otras idiomas. El problema es que hay muy poco que pueden comprenderlas.

Ansi, si vous voulez vous faire comprendre et vous engager dans une dialogue, il faut user une idiome qui est intellegible a la majorite. La lingua franca ici est l'anglais.

In other words, if the language barrier is indeed insurmountable, regrettably this is probably not the forum for you. On the other hand, we are relatively tolerant of posters whose first language is other than English. I hope you will decide to stay and participate.

We don't ban people simply for inability to speak English.

Edited by AdminQuetzal, : Bad grammar - in two languages.


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by maximo, posted 01-24-2007 10:51 PM maximo has not yet responded

      
  • elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 109 of 132 (477420)
    08-02-2008 2:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by elcano
    01-13-2007 6:36 PM


    data of eruption
    Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research 169 (2007) 87–98
    The 79 AD eruption of Somma: The relationship between the date of
    the eruption and the southeast tephra dispersion
    G. Rolandi, A. Paone, M. Di Lascio, G. Stefani
    Abstract

    Somma-Vesuvius is a composite volcano on the southern margin of the Campanian Plain which has been active during the last 39 ka BP and which poses a hazard and risk for the main population center situated around its base. The fieldwork and data analysis on which this report is based are related to the eight Plinian eruptions that have occurred in the last 25 ka. For six of these eruptions, the fallout products were dispersed to the east–northeast, whereas deposits from the 25 ka Codola and AD 79 eruptions were dispersed in a south-easterly direction. During the AD 79 eruption, in particular, the dispersal axis migrated from the east–southeast to south–southeast. New high level wind data collected at the weather stations of the Aereonautica Militare data centres at Pratica di Mare (Rome) and Brindisi have been compiled to characterize the prevailing wind condition in the Somma-Vesuvius region.

    The common north-easterly dispersal directions of the Plinian eruptions are consistent with the distribution of ash by high-altitude winds from October to June. In contrast, the south-easterly trend of the AD 79 products appears to be anomalous, because the eruption is conventionally believed to have occurred on the 24th of August, when its southeast dispersive trend falls in a transitional period from the Summer to Autumnal wind regimes.

    In fact, the AD 79 tephra dispersive direction towards the southeast is not in agreement with the June–August high-altitude wind directions that are toward the west. This poses serious doubt about the date of the eruption and the mismatch raises the hypothesis that the eruption occurred in the Autumnal climatic period, when high-altitude winds were also blowing towards the southeast.

    New archaeological findings presented in this study definitively place the date of eruption in the Autumn, in good agreement with the prevailing high-altitude wind directions above Somma-Vesuvius.

    Moreover, wind data and past eruptive behaviour indicate that a future subplinian–Plinian eruption at Somma-Vesuvius has a good chance to occur when winds are blowing toward the eastern sectors (northeast–southeast), in the Autumnal–Winter period, and only a slightest chance in Summer, when winds are blowing toward the west, depositing ash fallout on the Neapolitan community.

    The 79 AD eruption of Somma: The relationship between the date of the eruption and the southeast tephra dispersion

    Edited by Admin, : Fix long link, improve formatting.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by elcano, posted 01-13-2007 6:36 PM elcano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 110 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-14-2008 12:02 AM elcano has not yet responded
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    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5512
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 110 of 132 (478301)
    08-14-2008 12:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 109 by elcano
    08-02-2008 2:22 AM


    Anatoly, I presume?
    By any chance, would your name just so happen to be Anatoly Fomenko?


    “Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by elcano, posted 08-02-2008 2:22 AM elcano has not yet responded

        
    elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 111 of 132 (478544)
    08-17-2008 4:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 109 by elcano
    08-02-2008 2:22 AM


    Re: data of eruption

    Click to enlarge

    The nice picture from the book of 1737, in names of settlements is present Retina, Leucopetra, Porticus and Turris the Octave, which Herculaneum.

    Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by elcano, posted 08-02-2008 2:22 AM elcano has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-22-2008 10:16 PM elcano has responded

        
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5512
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 112 of 132 (478988)
    08-22-2008 10:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by elcano
    08-17-2008 4:28 AM


    Re: data of eruption
    What you are saying doesn't make any sense from an historical point of view. For one thing, the date you give was not long ago at all. Surely modern-day Romans would have known from their direct ancestors from first account experiences, none of which corroborates your claims here. Furthermore, the pictographs on the walls of the homes found at Pompei were that of ancient Romans, not Romans long after the time of Leonardo da Vinci, whose garb and entire surely would have given away the fact that it took place long after. Then there is other incontrovertible physical evidence, such as radiometric dating, that makes your assertion even less believable.

    There are accounts coming from Pliny the Younger, as well as other historians contemporary with him. His own father died in the eruption, either as a result of the noxious gases or the pyroclastic flow.

    "My uncle was stationed at Misenum, in active command of the fleet. On 24 August, in the early afternoon, my mother drew his attention to a cloud of unusual size and appearance. He had been out in the sun, had taken a cold bath, and lunched while lying down, and was then working at his books. He called for his shoes and climbed up to a place which would give him the best view of the phenomenon. It was not clear at that distance from which mountain the cloud was rising (it was afterwards known to be Vesuvius); its general appearance can best be expressed as being like an umbrella pine, for it rose to a great height on a sort of trunk and then split off into branches, I imagine because it was thrust upwards by the first blast and then left unsupported as the pressure subsided, or else it was borne down by its own weight so that it spread out and gradually dispersed. In places it looked white, elsewhere blotched and dirty, according to the amount of soil and ashes it carried with it.

    My uncle's scholarly acumen saw at once that it was important enough for a closer inspection, and he ordered a boat to be made ready, telling me I could come with him if I wished. I replied that I preferred to go on with my studies, and as it happened he had himself given me some writing to do.

    As he was leaving the house he was handed a message from Rectina, wife of Tascus whose house was at the foot of the mountain, so that escape was impossible except by boat. She was terrified by the danger threatening her and implored him to rescue her from her fate. He changed his plans, and what he had begun in a spirit of inquiry he completed as a hero. He gave orders for the warships to be launched and went on board himself with the intention of bringing help to many more people besides Rectina, for this lovely stretch of coast was thickly populated.

    He hurried to the place which everyone else was hastily leaving, steering his course straight for the danger zone. He was entirely fearless, describing each new movement and phase of the portent to be noted down exactly as he observed them. Ashes were already falling, hotter and thicker as the ships drew near, followed by bits of pumice and blackened stones, charred and cracked by the flames: then suddenly they were in shallow water, and the shore was blocked by the debris from the mountain.

    For a moment my uncle wondered whether to turn back, but when the helmsman advised this he refused, telling him that Fortune stood by the courageous and they must make for Pomponianus at Stabiae. He was cut off there by the breadth of the bay (for the shore gradually curves round a basin filled by the sea) so that he was not as yet in danger, though it was clear that this would come nearer as it spread. Pomponianus had therefore already put his belongings on board ship, intending to escape if the contrary wind fell. This wind was of course full in my uncle's favour, and he was able to bring his ship in. He embraced his terrified friend, cheered and encouraged him, and thinking he could calm his fears by showing his own composure, gave orders that he was to be carried to the bathroom. After his bath he lay down and dined; he was quite cheerful, or at any rate he pretended he was, which was no less courageous.

    Meanwhile on Mount Vesuvius broad sheets of fire and leaping flames blazed at several points, their bright glare emphasized by the darkness of night. My uncle tried to allay the fears of his companions by repeatedly declaring that these were nothing but bonfires left by the peasants in their terror, or else empty houses on fire in the districts they had abandoned. Then he went to rest and certainly slept, for as he was a stout man his breathing was rather loud and heavy and could be heard by people coming and going outside his door. By this time the courtyard giving access to his room was full of ashes mixed with pumice stones, so that its level had risen, and if he had stayed in the room any longer he would never have got out. He was wakened, came out and joined Pomponianus and the rest of the household who had sat up all night.

    They debated whether to stay indoors or take their chance in the open, for the buildings were now shaking with violent shocks, and seemed to be swaying to and fro as if they were torn from their foundations. Outside, on the other hand, there was the danger of failing pumice stones, even though these were light and porous; however, after comparing the risks they chose the latter. In my uncle's case one reason outweighed the other, but for the others it was a choice of fears. As a protection against falling objects they put pillows on their heads tied down with cloths.

    Elsewhere there was daylight by this time, but they were still in darkness, blacker and denser than any ordinary night, which they relieved by lighting torches and various kinds of lamp. My uncle decided to go down to the shore and investigate on the spot the possibility of any escape by sea, but he found the waves still wild and dangerous. A sheet was spread on the ground for him to lie down, and he repeatedly asked for cold water to drink.

    Then the flames and smell of sulphur which gave warning of the approaching fire drove the others to take flight and roused him to stand up. He stood leaning on two slaves and then suddenly collapsed, I imagine because the dense, fumes choked his breathing by blocking his windpipe which was constitutionally weak and narrow and often inflamed. When daylight returned on the 26th - two days after the last day he had been seen - his body was found intact and uninjured, still fully clothed and looking more like sleep than death.

    Ashes were already falling, not as yet very thickly. I looked round: a dense black cloud was coming up behind us, spreading over the earth like a flood.'Let us leave the road while we can still see,'I said,'or we shall be knocked down and trampled underfoot in the dark by the crowd behind.'We had scarcely sat down to rest when darkness fell, not the dark of a moonless or cloudy night, but as if the lamp had been put out in a closed room.

    You could hear the shrieks of women, the wailing of infants, and the shouting of men; some were calling their parents, others their children or their wives, trying to recognize them by their voices. People bewailed their own fate or that of their relatives, and there were some who prayed for death in their terror of dying. Many besought the aid of the gods, but still more imagined there were no gods left, and that the universe was plunged into eternal darkness for evermore.

    There were people, too, who added to the real perils by inventing fictitious dangers: some reported that part of Misenum had collapsed or another part was on fire, and though their tales were false they found others to believe them. A gleam of light returned, but we took this to be a warning of the approaching flames rather than daylight. However, the flames remained some distance off; then darkness came on once more and ashes began to fall again, this time in heavy showers. We rose from time to time and shook them off, otherwise we should have been buried and crushed beneath their weight. I could boast that not a groan or cry of fear escaped me in these perils, but I admit that I derived some poor consolation in my mortal lot from the belief that the whole world was dying with me and I with it."

    Is this account not true? If not, why not?


    “Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by elcano, posted 08-17-2008 4:28 AM elcano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 113 by elcano, posted 08-23-2008 5:42 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
     Message 115 by elcano, posted 08-23-2008 7:03 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

        
    elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 113 of 132 (479008)
    08-23-2008 5:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 112 by Hyroglyphx
    08-22-2008 10:16 PM


    Re: data of eruption
    quote:
    My uncle was stationed at Misenum, in active command of the fleet. On 24 August, in the early afternoon, my mother drew his attention to a cloud of unusual size and appearance

    The Italian archeologists do not agree with eruption date.
    See Message 109
    or
    quote:
    The controversy about the precise date of the destruction of Pompeii was settled on October 11th, 1889. While excavating a bed of volcanic ashes, a few steps outside the Porta Stabiana, Signor Ruggero discovered and moulded in plaster two human forms, and that of a trunk of a tree, 3.40 metres long, 0.40 m. in diameter.
    One of the human casts belonged to a middle-aged man clothed in an overcoat, and lying on his back with drawn-up legs, and arms outstretched, as if trying to protect his chest from the shower of burning ashes by which he was suffocated. The other belongs to an old woman suffocated and buried while attempting to raise herself from the ground by the joint action of hands and knees. By far more important is the cast of the trunk of the tree. The tree was still in its upright position, and must have been twenty-five or thirty feet high. The lower portion, embedded in pumice-stone, does not appear in the mould; the top also has disappeared, because, projecting above the bed of ashes, it must have been burned or cut away.
    The middle section of the trunk is wonderfully well preserved, together with many leaves and berries. Trunk, leaves, and berries belong undoubtedly to a species of Laurus Nobilis, the fruit of which comes to maturity towards the end of autumn. Prof. Pasquale, in a paper published in the Notizie degli Scavi for 1889, p. 408, proves that the berries discovered on October 11th were perfectly ripe.This Laurus Nobilis, therefore, so ingeniously brought back to life after a lapse of one thousand eight hundred and ten years, settles the controversy concerning [p. 1289] the date of the eruption: it took place in the month of November, on November 23, A.D. 79.
    Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898)

    Edited by elcano, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-22-2008 10:16 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 114 by Percy, posted 08-23-2008 7:01 AM elcano has responded
     Message 117 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-23-2008 11:44 PM elcano has responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 15647
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 114 of 132 (479016)
    08-23-2008 7:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 113 by elcano
    08-23-2008 5:42 AM


    Re: data of eruption
    elcano writes:

    The Italian archeologists do not agree with eruption date.

    They don't agree with your eruption date, either.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by elcano, posted 08-23-2008 5:42 AM elcano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by elcano, posted 08-23-2008 5:42 PM Percy has responded

        
    elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 115 of 132 (479017)
    08-23-2008 7:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 112 by Hyroglyphx
    08-22-2008 10:16 PM


    Re: data of eruption
    The letter of Pliny the Younger has also other reading.

    quote:
    The sailors stationed at Retina, alarmed at the imminence of the danger – for the village lay at the foot of the mountain, and the sole escape was by sea – sent to entreat his assistance in rescuing them from this frightful peril. Upon this he instantly changed his plans, and what he had already begun from a desire for knowledge, he determined to carry out as a matter of duty. He had the gallies put to see at once, and went on board himself, with the intention of rendering assistance, not only to Retina, but to many other places as well; for the whole of this charming coast was thickly populated.
    “The Natural History of Pliny” trans. J. Bostock, H.T. Riley, London 1893.

    Retina (volgare Resina) a city existing in the Middle Ages, but not in the ancient time.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-22-2008 10:16 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

        
    elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 116 of 132 (479038)
    08-23-2008 5:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by Percy
    08-23-2008 7:01 AM


    Re: data of eruption
    quote:
    The botanist, Professor
    Fortunate Pasquale, examined the remains, and pronounces the tree
    to be a variety of the Laurus nobilis ; that is the arbutus or unedo
    or strawberry-tree, the fruit of which does not ripen till well into
    November. The fruit found was immature, and proves that the
    tree must have fallen early in November.
    The fruit consists of a small round red ball, the coat of which is
    somewhat rough. It grows in profusion at the Lakes of Killarney,
    and ripens about Christmas. The fruit is sold in the streets of
    Rome in December, under the title of ceresa marine; in Florence
    the fruit is called corbezzola ; and at Siena, albatre. Pliny says
    (xxiii. 79) : "The arbutus or unedo bears a fruit that is difficult of
    digestion and injurious to the stomach." "The fruit is held in no
    esteem, in proof of which it has gained its name of unedo (unum,
    edo, I eat but one), people being generally content with eating but
    one "
    (xv. 28).
    From this interesting discovery we are now certain that Pompeii
    was destroyed on November 5th, 79.
    BIBLIOGRAFIA DI POMPEI
    Russel Forbes, 1893 p.44

    Fruit ripens about Christmas.
    Eruption of Vesuvius was 16 december 1631.
    Archeological finds assert that Pompey has been destroyed in the winter.
    Eruption described Pliny the Younger is not connected in any way with the destroyed city.

    Pliny the Younger knows nothing about the city of Pompey. See letter in Message 112

    Edited by elcano, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by Percy, posted 08-23-2008 7:01 AM Percy has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by Percy, posted 08-24-2008 7:45 AM elcano has responded

        
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5512
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 117 of 132 (479054)
    08-23-2008 11:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 113 by elcano
    08-23-2008 5:42 AM


    Re: data of eruption
    The controversy about the precise date of the destruction of Pompeii was settled on October 11th, 1889.

    You assert that Pompei was destroyed in 1631. Somehow it was magically forgotten about until it was rediscovered in 1748, a whole 117 years later. In the grand scheme of time, that is a blip on the radar screen. That makes no sense, whatsoever, nor does it lend any credence to the fact that the physical evidence does not correspond to a 1631 date. It may not have been destroyed in exactly 79 AD. But the disparity between the year 79 and 1631 is quite unbelievable.


    “Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by elcano, posted 08-23-2008 5:42 AM elcano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by elcano, posted 08-24-2008 5:26 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

        
    elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 118 of 132 (479060)
    08-24-2008 5:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 117 by Hyroglyphx
    08-23-2008 11:44 PM


    Re: data of eruption
    Cities destroyed in 1631.
    Before and after eruption.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-23-2008 11:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 15647
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 119 of 132 (479066)
    08-24-2008 7:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 116 by elcano
    08-23-2008 5:42 PM


    Re: data of eruption
    Your source:

    Professor Fortuante Pasqule writes:

    From this interesting discovery we are now certain that Pompeii was destroyed on November 5th, 79.

    You:

    elcano writes:

    Eruption of Vesuvius was 16 december 1631.
    Archeological finds assert that Pompey has been destroyed in the winter.

    In general you want to look for sources that agree with rather than contradict you.

    --Percy

    Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by elcano, posted 08-23-2008 5:42 PM elcano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 120 by elcano, posted 08-24-2008 2:16 PM Percy has responded

        
    elcano
    Member (Idle past 1727 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Moscow
    Joined: 01-12-2007


    Message 120 of 132 (479086)
    08-24-2008 2:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 119 by Percy
    08-24-2008 7:45 AM


    Re: data of eruption
    You really believe that there are any sources confirming destruction of Pompey in 1631.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 119 by Percy, posted 08-24-2008 7:45 AM Percy has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-24-2008 2:40 PM elcano has responded
     Message 122 by Percy, posted 08-24-2008 3:23 PM elcano has not yet responded
     Message 123 by Coyote, posted 08-24-2008 4:08 PM elcano has not yet responded

        
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