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Author Topic:   polonium halos
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 265 (28936)
01-12-2003 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by gene90
01-12-2003 7:01 PM


The whole issue is being reopened Gene.
With the recent helium retention work creationists are now accepting all of the radiodecay data (finally!) and now we can start looking back at Gentry's stuff again. The halos document that (i) radiodecay occurred but that (ii) it was accelerated. I believe that claims that all of Gentry's stuff was refuted in the 1980s are exaggerated, but I am not an expert.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 265 (28937)
01-12-2003 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by techristian
01-12-2003 6:15 PM


TEC
The really solid new stuff is the measurement of helium diffusion that shows that too much helium is still in the rocks. It is based on earlier work by Gentry (the halo guy). Late last year creationists refined the technique to generate a new dating scheme based on helium diffusion from radiodecay centres. They dated 'billion year old' rocks at between 4,000 and 14,000 years old. It is a major creatonist breakthrough:
Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research
Thanks for pointing out Gentry's new videos. I suspect (without being an expert) that much of Gentry's 1980s claims are still valid.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 265 (29014)
01-13-2003 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John Solum
01-13-2003 8:53 AM


John S
Gentry’s work with polonium halos is based on the premise that rates of radioactive decay have been constant. If decay rates have varied, then his work is invalidated.
In our sceanrio there are various points at which decay was accelrated presumably to generate catastrophic tectonic activity (creation day 3 and the flood).
the diameter of those halos, which he said is directly proportional to the energy of the decay of the isotope that formed the halo (the greater the energy the larger the halo).
Agreed
He said that the energy released by the decay of particular isotopes of polonium would form halos with the same diameter as the halos in his samples, and therefore that the halos in his samples formed through the decay of polonium.
Agreed
If radioactive decay rates have changed, then the energy associated with the decay events has changed, and if that’s the case his identifications are invalid.
Not necessarily. The pop-out rate may change but the energies may stay the same. This may or may not be possible and we await the RATE guys theoretical work. Regardless, Gentry's creation granite may be at a time point during normal decay rates.
So, contrary to Gentry’s claim there is a source for the polonium in his samples. Further, Po210, 214, and 218 all occur after radon222 in the decay series, and since radon’s a gas, not only is there a source for the polonium, there’s a source that’s capable of migrating through the rocks where he collected his samples.
It's possible that Gentry's stuff is wrong, I agree. I don't kow enough about it and I hope you understand that I would like to read his rebuttals (anybody know if they are on the web?).
Nevertheless, Gentry is also responsible for the early helium retention work whihc is what I was actually alluding to. I am unaware whether halos are involved in that or not.

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 Message 7 by John Solum, posted 01-13-2003 8:53 AM John Solum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by edge, posted 01-13-2003 7:41 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 12 by Coragyps, posted 01-13-2003 8:16 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 14 by John Solum, posted 01-13-2003 9:57 PM Tranquility Base has replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 265 (29016)
01-13-2003 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by edge
01-12-2003 10:31 PM


Edge
I guess I was wondering whether one gets halos in the zircons or biotite. This is primarily a red-herring, I agree. My main point is that Gentry was involved in helium retention, possibly independently of halos of any sort.
You'll be vaugely happy to know that creationists (including me) regularly use halos to prove to creaitonists who would rather not think about it that billions of years worth of radiodecay has indeed occured.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-13-2003]

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 265 (29024)
01-13-2003 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by edge
01-13-2003 7:41 PM


Edge
I apologise again. In Australia it is our summer holidays and I have been away and only have time for lazy posting. I will get to Wehappy's stuff any day now.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 265 (29027)
01-13-2003 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coragyps
01-13-2003 8:16 PM


^ I agree the power output would go up. That doesn't change the halo diameters. RATE already has a chapter on the theoretical stuff in the RATE book of y2000. I'll have a quick look if the ycover the issue of halo diameter.

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 265 (29047)
01-13-2003 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by John Solum
01-13-2003 9:57 PM


John S
That’s an interesting idea, but it’s unworkable since half-life and kinetic energy are related; if you change one, you change the other. If you want the isotope to decay faster you’d have to reduce the half-life, which would increase the kinetic energy, and therefore the diameter of the halo.
Your link states that the half life is dependent on Q (the KE release) but it may be dependent on other things. It actually poinys out that you can get 24 orders of magnitude half life change from a doubling of Q so maybe the 6 orders of magnitude change in half-life we are talking about could even use a small Q change. I'm an ex-particle physicist but I'll take a look at the RATE book before wasting too much time on it.
I can certainly understand your desire to read Gentry’s work. I don’t know what he’s published on the web.
I've actually got Gentry's 1980s book. On the halo.com site he is certainly claiming that the 'refutations' are invalid.

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Replies to this message:
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 265 (29157)
01-14-2003 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by John Solum
01-14-2003 8:46 AM


John S
I agree with you and creationists are generally reinterpreting Gentry's findings including this Nov 2002 ICR impact article:
Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research

This message is a reply to:
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