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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
OS
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 406 of 483 (730688)
06-29-2014 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Coyote
06-29-2014 7:34 PM


No, I wanted more in depth knowledge as to how the general K-Ar-Ca mix works. It has spurred me to read more.

On the magma level, it does look like 40K is being forced to turn into 40Ar and 40Ca by neutrons and protons.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 415 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2014 5:16 AM OS has responded
 Message 417 by JonF, posted 06-30-2014 8:08 AM OS has not yet responded

    
Coyote
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Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 407 of 483 (730689)
06-29-2014 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by OS
06-29-2014 7:45 PM


OK.

That part is outside of my field. I do radiocarbon dating, but have never dealt with the other radiometric dating methods.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


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OS
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 408 of 483 (730690)
06-29-2014 8:14 PM


I think I should conclude here too.

Edited by OS, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Coyote
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Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 409 of 483 (730691)
06-29-2014 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by OS
06-29-2014 8:14 PM


Stick around. This is a good place to learn things.
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


(2)
Message 410 of 483 (730693)
06-29-2014 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by OS
06-29-2014 7:45 PM


No, neutrons and protons from the "outside" have nothing to do with it. Potassium-40
is radioactive. It decays, to Ca-40 and Ar-40, all by itself.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 7:45 PM OS has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 8:48 PM Coragyps has responded

    
OS
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 411 of 483 (730697)
06-29-2014 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Coragyps
06-29-2014 8:20 PM


"For a collision between argon 40 and a proton, the result would be emission of either two protons to get Cl-39 or an alpha particle to get Cl-38."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Coragyps, posted 06-29-2014 8:20 PM Coragyps has responded

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Coragyps
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Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


(2)
Message 412 of 483 (730702)
06-29-2014 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by OS
06-29-2014 8:48 PM


Neither chlorine-38 nor chlorine-39 are either calcium-40 or argon-40. Sort of like a duck is not a frog, and a persimmon not a paramecium. That, and 40+1-4 does not equal 38, so one argon-40 plus one proton minus one alpha particle ( the four) won't get you to anything-38.
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NoNukes
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Posts: 9320
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 413 of 483 (730704)
06-29-2014 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by OS
06-29-2014 7:25 PM


So the only thing I can say, and it goes against conventional understanding, is that 40K/40Ar decay requires a neutron and the expulsion of a proton.

Radioactive decay is a spontaneous reaction. Decay does not require anything except the parent nuclei and the passage of time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1479
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 414 of 483 (730718)
06-30-2014 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by OS
06-29-2014 8:48 PM


OS writes:

"For a collision between argon 40 and a proton, the result would be emission of either two protons to get Cl-39 or an alpha particle to get Cl-38."


This would thus mean that, in the cases where the ages of crystals were determined with the K/Ar or Ar/Ar methods, those crystals are actually older than the ages determined by these methods. It would mean that those geologists underestimated the ages of those crystals.

I will explain why, quickly. For example, the K/Ar method starts working with the crystallisation of minerals.

Ar is an inert gas and can't be incorporated in the chemical reactions resulting in the crystal lattices of crystals. That's how we start, from basic chemistry. When the crystal forms, 0% Ar in the crystal lattices.

Then the K in those lattices start decaying according to basic physics.

The more the percentage of Ar in crystal lattices, the older the crystal. So, old OS is telling us that some Ar in the crystal lattices are removed via protons.

OS just confirmed that the earth is old. Very, very old.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1479
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 415 of 483 (730719)
06-30-2014 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by OS
06-29-2014 7:45 PM


OS writes:

On the magma level, it does look like 40K is being forced to turn into 40Ar and 40Ca by neutrons and protons.

Luckily for humanity, both the K/Ar and Ar/Ar methods only start working after the magmatic phases.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 7:45 PM OS has responded

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1479
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 416 of 483 (731797)
06-30-2014 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Coyote
06-29-2014 8:16 PM


Coyote writes:

Stick around. This is a good place to learn things.

Ahmen, indeed.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 417 of 483 (731798)
06-30-2014 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by OS
06-29-2014 7:45 PM


On the magma level, it does look like 40K is being forced to turn into 40Ar and 40Ca by neutrons and protons.

Not even wrong.

Calcium is irrelevant to radiometric dating. As I posted before and you denied, 40K decays to 40 Ar by capturing an electron from an inner shell to turn a neutron into a proton and emitting a 1.460 MeV (minimum) gamma ray and a neutrino.

We know this stuff.


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 Message 406 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 7:45 PM OS has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 418 of 483 (731801)
06-30-2014 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Pressie
06-30-2014 7:37 AM


learning
Coyote writes:

Stick around. This is a good place to learn things.

Ahmen, indeed.

Indeed ... IF one wants to learn ... and is willing to change their mind when presented with new (to them), more accurate information.

Enjoy.


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by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2014 7:37 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
OS
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 419 of 483 (733729)
07-20-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Pressie
06-30-2014 5:16 AM


Luckily for humanity, both the K/Ar and Ar/Ar methods only start working after the magmatic phases.
What's your proof?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2014 5:16 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 15490
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 420 of 483 (733731)
07-20-2014 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by OS
07-20-2014 5:51 PM


OS writes:

Luckily for humanity, both the K/Ar and Ar/Ar methods only start working after the magmatic phases.
What's your proof?

Pressie is merely calling your attention to a very well known fact, that some rocks contain minerals that take on the orientation of the existing magnetic field as they form. This can happen in volcanic rock, sedimentary rock, and metamorphic rock. The study of such rocks and their layers is called paleomagnetism. This field is how we know the position and orientations of ancient continents over past eons, as shown in videos like this:

--Percy


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