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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
edge
Member
Posts: 3711
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 436 of 483 (741447)
11-12-2014 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Pressie
07-21-2014 3:15 AM


Ar is a noble gas; therefore it can't partcipiate in the chemical reactions resulting in the formation of the crystal lattices. Thus; Ar won't be present in the crystal lattices directly after formation of crystals. Basic chemistry.

Indeed, argon will not form chemical bonds within any mineral that I know of; however, it can be found as a contaminant depending on the space available and the time of formation of the mineral grain.

For instance, pyroxene is, for some reason, a known bad actor in that it does accommodate argon in its crystal lattice. That is why I never trust K-Ar dates on pyroxene crystals, or high-pyroxene rocks such as basalt. However, as a last resort, I believe some researchers have used it in past, the absence of other techniques. It just carries a very large caveat.

YECs, however, will gladly date pyroxene by K-Ar since it does provide erratic results. Not only does it accommodate argon, but it has a low [K], making measurement much more difficult.

On the other hand, biotite does not seem to have this problem unless it has been somehow altered, or contains some inclusions of other minerals. This is probably due to the available space in the crystal lattice, but also possibly because pyroxene would crystallize earlier in the cooling of a magma and scavenge the argon, or before the argon could partition into a gas phase and escape.

Keep in mind that this is an extremely simplified explanation from someone only peripherally associated with the process and only in decades past. In fact, there are now so many new and accurate radiometric techniques that you don't even hear as much about K-Ar any more; but it would still be very useful in high potassium rocks.


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OS
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 437 of 483 (755531)
04-09-2015 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by edge
11-12-2014 11:32 AM


How do the noble gases get trapped in radioactive rock. Have you thought this out?
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 438 of 483 (755533)
04-09-2015 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by OS
04-09-2015 7:32 AM


I have thought that out, yes. Argon atoms are born right there in the rock when potassium-40 atoms decay.
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Pressie
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Posts: 1474
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 439 of 483 (755538)
04-09-2015 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by OS
04-09-2015 7:32 AM


Already answered in previous post.

Edited by Pressie, : Changed paragraph

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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OS
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 440 of 483 (755543)
04-09-2015 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by RAZD
11-08-2014 5:18 PM


Re: for zaius137
Clear as mud. But the Geiger counter seems to rule tree ring dating. How C14 is in the atmosphere and where it is seems to be deciding factors. Most trees don't grow new rings. They have them at once and they become distinct and spread with age.
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 Message 446 by JonF, posted 04-09-2015 11:47 AM OS has responded
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 Message 452 by RAZD, posted 04-10-2015 2:30 PM OS has responded

    
OS
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 441 of 483 (755544)
04-09-2015 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Coragyps
04-09-2015 7:51 AM


They cause the formation of the crystals. The crystal are formed slowly. Nice dodge.

Edited by OS, : No reason given.


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ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 561
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 442 of 483 (755545)
04-09-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by OS
04-09-2015 9:06 AM


Re: for zaius137
OS writes:

Most trees don't grow new rings.

Then let's make sure and use the ones that do for dating calibration.

JB


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OS
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 443 of 483 (755546)
04-09-2015 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by ThinAirDesigns
04-09-2015 9:14 AM


Re: for zaius137
ThinAirDesigns writes:

Then let's make sure and use the ones that do for dating calibration.

You always keep track of the date when you pull something from a tree. The results don't always represent tree ring growth.

Let me guess, you measure every ring as it expands too. It is interesting to me how paper seems to date better than corpses.


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ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 561
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 444 of 483 (755547)
04-09-2015 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by OS
04-09-2015 9:34 AM


Re: for zaius137
When your response is written such as to be decipherable, I'll respond. Until then, it's simply not possible to understand things like:

OS writes:

You always keep track of the date when you pull something from a tree.

It's not even clear if it's a statement or a question.

Try harder.

JB


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Coragyps
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Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 445 of 483 (755551)
04-09-2015 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by OS
04-09-2015 9:07 AM


Who is "they?" Goblins?

Cooling of molten rock can cause the formation of crystals - and slowly, if the rock cools slowly down underground. Potassium-40 decays very slowly. If an atom of it decays after the crystal it is in has formed, the resultant argon atom can get trapped.

Is there something unclear there?


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JonF
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Posts: 3483
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 446 of 483 (755555)
04-09-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by OS
04-09-2015 9:06 AM


Re: for zaius137
Most trees don't grow new rings. They have them at once and they become distinct and spread with age.

Um, er, nope. Most trees form new rings each year. This is established by correlating rings with each other and other dating methods and with known historical events.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1474
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 447 of 483 (755573)
04-09-2015 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Coragyps
04-09-2015 10:57 AM


To me it seems as if OS thinks that atoms just run around in crystals in whatever and whitchever random way they want to.
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Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 247
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 448 of 483 (755578)
04-09-2015 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by OS
04-09-2015 9:06 AM


Re: for zaius137
Most trees don't grow new rings. They have them at once and they become distinct and spread with age

How interesting. How do the trees manage to know in advance how old they are going to get? Lot's of trees around these parts live to 800+ years. Seems like it might get a tad crowded in the saplings with all those rings waiting to spread.

I've looked at a pretty fair number of logs and stumps over the years and haven't seen where the unused rings might be hiding in the smaller ones. Can you shed some light on this?


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OS
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 449 of 483 (755581)
04-09-2015 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by JonF
04-09-2015 11:47 AM


Re: for zaius137
Back to the most pseudoscientific part then?
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OS
Member (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 450 of 483 (755582)
04-09-2015 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Capt Stormfield
04-09-2015 3:25 PM


Re: for zaius137
Capt Stormfield writes:

How do the trees manage to know in advance how old they are going to get?

They don't, because the amount rings of the tree is meaningless to carbon-14 dating. You pretend to have studied this on a cell level. All rings of the tree tend to get bigger with age.
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