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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 676 of 775 (823553)
11-12-2017 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by starman
11-10-2017 12:01 PM


Topic Starter Remix
starman, to ringo writes:

You are not here to debate but to air hatred of God and Christians.

And his post #666 is proof!

Seriously, though lets regroup. Here is the topic starter again:

quote:
There seems to be a major point of disagreement amongst those proposing a Y.E.C. model of life's history. On the one hand, some propose widespread and rapid evolution, including speciation (within "kinds") after the flood, while others deny that such things can happen. So, does the model require this speciation, especially considering that space on the Ark was limited? And how does it happen? Are beneficial mutations involved?
Let's discuss the model, which seems to be in need of a major update.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by starman, posted 11-10-2017 12:01 PM starman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 2:03 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 682 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:33 PM Phat has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 677 of 775 (823555)
11-12-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
11-12-2017 1:58 PM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
Don't you mean to have this on the Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood? thread?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 11-12-2017 1:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 678 of 775 (826490)
01-02-2018 4:24 PM


Alas, for many people, science is still working as their Brainwashing Machine. Reading the typical stuff they are saying, it's clear that their main presupposition is quite obsolete one - namely, that the physical reality works as an independent mechanism. This old paradigm has been completely disproved but still somehow remains in the "mainstream", especially outside the modern physics.

Edited by AlexCaledin, : "for many people" seems better than "to many people", doesn't it?


Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 679 of 775 (826504)
01-03-2018 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 678 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 4:24 PM


Alas, for many people, science is still working as their Brainwashing Machine. Reading the typical stuff they are saying, it's clear that their main presupposition is quite obsolete one - namely, that the physical reality works as an independent mechanism. This old paradigm has been completely disproved but still somehow remains in the "mainstream", especially outside the modern physics.

And I notice that once again you fail to even attempt dealing with the thread.

Please show how "This old paradigm has been completely disproved ... " because inquiring minds want to know.

Without that, all you have is imagination and wishful thinking. As I said on Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics? in Message 142

So you prefer to believe in a lying god/s that create hoaxes and false narratives.

Something that I consider totally pointless, so totally pointless that you run away from any point on which to base your view of reality. What you believe in becomes a world of illusion and make believe, where anything - repeat ANYTHING - is of equal importance: none.

You have no test for reality

This world of delusion is what you create to keep from admitting that evidence as simple as tree rings exists.

Now sadly, for you, these threads are science threads, they do not deal with make-believe, but facts, objective empirical facts.

So either pony up -- starting with your proof -- or admit that you have no scientific argument against the evidence detailed in these threads showing that the earth is old.

Belief is not evidence. Opinion is not evidence. Make believe is not evidence. Tree rings are evidence.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-02-2018 4:24 PM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

  
creation
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 680 of 775 (826939)
01-14-2018 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by jar
11-09-2017 5:12 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
quote:
There are no missing isotopes.
Actually, in Oklo there are supposed to have been a chain of decays. Depending on the half lives, and when the reactions are thought to have happened, some isotopes would no longer be expected to be there because they would have decayed away. For example, if something was supposedly decaying for a few billion years, and something, say, had a half life of 50,000 years, when we look at what is there now, we would not expect to see the isotopes with the 50,000 year half life...would we? So, it would now be missing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 5:12 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by Pressie, posted 01-15-2018 5:51 AM creation has not yet responded
 Message 688 by RAZD, posted 01-15-2018 10:49 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 681 of 775 (826940)
01-14-2018 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by RAZD
11-10-2017 7:22 AM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence. Fail #36
Nor do you have evidence there was not a former nature. Either one. So that doesn't help you.

As for your pics, can you tell us how old the tree was and where the pics were in the life of the tree? Ha. You seem to be making the point that in THIS nature, a tree ring sequence will be a certain way. Irrelevant to your discussion of some different nature in the past.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2017 7:22 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by RAZD, posted 01-15-2018 10:29 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 682 of 775 (826941)
01-14-2018 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
11-12-2017 1:58 PM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
I think the big issue for rapid or slow evolution would be what nature it happened in. You would need to know that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 11-12-2017 1:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by Coyote, posted 01-15-2018 12:37 AM creation has responded
 Message 685 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 3:12 AM creation has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 4 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 683 of 775 (826944)
01-15-2018 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by creation
01-14-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
I think the big issue for rapid or slow evolution would be what nature it happened in. You would need to know that.

We know what "nature" things happened in.

If you disagree, you need to present scientific evidence to the contrary.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:33 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:19 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
creation
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 684 of 775 (826947)
01-15-2018 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 683 by Coyote
01-15-2018 12:37 AM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
To the contrary of what? A hollow boast? Ha. I claim science doesn't know either way. The evidence for that is watching you post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by Coyote, posted 01-15-2018 12:37 AM Coyote has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 685 of 775 (826951)
01-15-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by creation
01-14-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
Hello, creation. When you say "what nature" do you have a hypothesis or belief as to what natures there are? How many? Just curious....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:33 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1903
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 686 of 775 (826954)
01-15-2018 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by creation
01-14-2018 11:26 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
creation writes:

Actually, in Oklo there are supposed to have been a chain of decays. Depending on the half lives, and when the reactions are thought to have happened, some isotopes would no longer be expected to be there because they would have decayed away. For example, if something was supposedly decaying for a few billion years, and something, say, had a half life of 50,000 years, when we look at what is there now, we would not expect to see the isotopes with the 50,000 year half life...would we? So, it would now be missing.

Not really. It depends on the technology and method on how much is detected. I would expect to find a low reading of long-gone isotopes in the equipment for a myriad of reasons. The ± in scientific articles mean a lot.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:26 PM creation has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 687 of 775 (826971)
01-15-2018 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by creation
01-14-2018 11:31 PM


creation continues Starman's arguments
Hello creation, and welcome to the fray.

I've inserted comments that you are replying to, so you can see how this helps communication.

Another silly absurd assertion. You have NO evidence that there was a former nature -- it's fantasy.

Nor do you have evidence there was not a former nature. Either one. So that doesn't help you.

Actually we do have evidence in the consilience of all the age measuring systems consistently agreeing one with the other, with no anomalies, year after year, decade after decade, millennia after millennia.

But more to the point, this is a science thread, and that means arguments pro and con must involve the scientific methodologies.

One of these is that we don't base science on fantasy or imagination. We have facts, data, objective empirical evidence, and we have theories derived from the evidence to explain the evidence. The better the theory explains the evidence the more applicable it is. To apply theory we make predictions and then test them. Then more predictions are made. This is called the scientific method, a constant feed-back loop mechanism to test and expand our knowledge:

As long as a theory provides usable predictions (ones that come true) we continue to use it, each positive prediction providing further validation of the value of the theory.

When a theory provides unusable predictions (ones that are false) we stop using it, either modifying the theory to accommodate the new information or developing a new theory to explain all the evidence (including the new evidence).

In this way we move from Aristotle's concept of gravity, to Newton's Law of Gravity, to Einstein's Relativity, in each case providing better explanations for the observed behaviors of objects in gravity fields.

Nor do you have evidence there was not a former nature. Either one. So that doesn't help you.

And I ask you, as I asked starman, what evidence do you have that a "former nature" existed that was significantly different from what we see around us, from historical, geological and archaeological studies of the past, and what is reaching us from the stars (Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)).

Without evidence you do not have a theory to test, just imagination and fantasy. Without evidence there is no reason to consider imagination and fantasy as an information gathering system equal to what science discovers and demonstrates.

When there is neither evidence for nor evidence against, then we can simply ignore such concepts until such time as there is evidence ... and a that point start a scientific investigation.

As for your pics, can you tell us how old the tree was and where the pics were in the life of the tree? Ha. You seem to be making the point that in THIS nature, a tree ring sequence will be a certain way. Irrelevant to your discussion of some different nature in the past.

If you want to discuss the whole of dendrochronology, then I suggest you start with the updated, improved (information added) thread The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1) - starting with Message 3 and running through Message 17 with particular attention to Accuracy and Precision in Dendrochronologies Compared to Historical Events.

... Irrelevant to your discussion of some different nature in the past.

If you want me to take your arguments seriously, then I expect you to take my arguments seriously, to read for understanding and to ask questions where you have problems with the information.

And I expect you to provide some rational evidence based foundation for your argument, rather than just pot-shots.

Enjoy

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:31 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:44 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 688 of 775 (826974)
01-15-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 680 by creation
01-14-2018 11:26 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
quote:
There are no missing isotopes.
Actually, in Oklo there are supposed to have been a chain of decays. Depending on the half lives, and when the reactions are thought to have happened, some isotopes would no longer be expected to be there because they would have decayed away. For example, if something was supposedly decaying for a few billion years, and something, say, had a half life of 50,000 years, when we look at what is there now, we would not expect to see the isotopes with the 50,000 year half life...would we? So, it would now be missing.

True, but that gives us additional evidence for an old earth, because

  • short half-life isotopes have all decayed to the next isotope in the decay chain, a fact that would not occur with a young earth, and they leave evidence of their existence in the existence of those products,

  • the products of the decay of those short half-life isotopes a just exactly the same products as we observe today, and they are in just exactly the same proportions to the other elements as we observe today.

If you want a further discussion on this decay chain evidence, then I suggest you read Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?. You may want to start at Message 47 where the decay chain is discussed.

Sadly some of the pictures are no longer linked due to changing service from photo storage providers.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:26 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 689 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:29 PM RAZD has responded

  
creation
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 689 of 775 (826987)
01-15-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by RAZD
01-15-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
razd writes:

True, but that gives us additional evidence for an old earth, because

short half-life isotopes have all decayed to the next isotope in the decay chain, a fact that would not occur with a young earth, and they leave evidence of their existence in the existence of those products,
the products of the decay of those short half-life isotopes a just exactly the same products as we observe today, and they are in just exactly the same proportions to the other elements as we observe today.

So prove that the next isotopes in the chain cam from decay?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by RAZD, posted 01-15-2018 10:49 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Coragyps, posted 01-15-2018 1:44 PM creation has responded
 Message 694 by RAZD, posted 01-15-2018 2:20 PM creation has responded

    
creation
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 104
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 690 of 775 (826989)
01-15-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 685 by Phat
01-15-2018 3:12 AM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
. When you say "what nature" do you have a hypothesis or belief as to what natures there are?
Not that I want to share here.

Edited by creation, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 3:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
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