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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1216 of 1269 (844283)
11-27-2018 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Phat
11-25-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
Easy peasy. Detrmining when a bottleneck 'happened' is based on current genes/DNA/genetics. Unless the nature was the same, why would molecules and atoms have behaved exactly as they now do? Why would the genetics of a former nature be the very same as now?? Proof?

I suspect that all DNA we have in any good shape is from the recent past and this nature.

Got any from the KT era?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by edge, posted 11-28-2018 10:27 AM creation has responded

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 1217 of 1269 (844284)
11-27-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1215 by RAZD
11-27-2018 8:16 AM


Re: Funny cause and effect concept
Hi RAZD et al.

I have just read AIG's article by Snelling on the Hawaiian-Emperor chain and admit to being somewhat gobsmacked. He acknowledges that the radiometric dates for the seamounts are what you would expect for the rate of current movement, but blandly says the rate of movement, RM decay, and volcanic activity, all changed in lock-step to produce this result. The wilful blindness is breath-taking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2018 8:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1224 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2018 8:14 AM Pollux has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1218 of 1269 (844285)
11-27-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1215 by RAZD
11-27-2018 8:16 AM


Re: Funny cause and effect concept
Let's review. You offered us some tattered/reconstructed parchment written by some unknown on the back of an actual ancient scroll, that has missing kings, many unknown kings, and a plethora of spook kings!

Because some of the kings on the list actually existed, you try to use tree ring chronology that assumes fast present nature tree growth to date those kings!
You seem so desperate to use same nature past beliefs on tree rings, that you dredge up a spirit king inclusive list to try and make it appear as if the dates are good.

You failed to provide any close up details on the only rings that mattered, the few hundred rings from the living tree, yet you made claims about the C14 they supposedly contain. Claims based on there having existed a same nature in the past that would have allowed the carbon to exist in nature only as it now would....etc etc.

You avoid all responsibility for having to prove this nature you claim existed, and upon which ALL your religious correlations depend. You thought you could just plow along trying to explain all evidences and correlate them TO YOUR belief!

I do not find it strange in any way that furniture from trees would contain the same pattern of C14 as trees from the time would!? The only issue is how C14 fit in nature and what it did, where it used to come from...etc etc..in other words C14 only has meaning in a nature we know! You have transposed the meaning from this nature to all former times for no reason.

Edited by creation, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by RAZD, posted 11-27-2018 8:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1226 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2018 10:09 AM creation has responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1219 of 1269 (844286)
11-27-2018 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1213 by Pressie
11-26-2018 5:57 AM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
Great, so how about pre flood?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1213 by Pressie, posted 11-26-2018 5:57 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1220 of 1269 (844287)
11-27-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1203 by Tanypteryx
11-25-2018 1:00 PM


Re: Evidence of fountain of the deep
Origins so called sciences are beliefs used to explain evidences the godless ignorant way they prefer.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1203 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-25-2018 1:00 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1222 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-27-2018 5:58 PM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1221 of 1269 (844289)
11-27-2018 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Tanypteryx
11-25-2018 12:51 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
The fact remains that the biblical flood was said to have caused a great great extinction! Your fable about the KT layer also claims the same thing. The waters came from space and deep under the earth...iridium is said by science to come from there also! If the crater was left by some impact from under the earth to above, we would have the same striations etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-25-2018 12:51 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-27-2018 6:18 PM creation has responded
 Message 1225 by edge, posted 11-28-2018 10:07 AM creation has responded
 Message 1230 by ringo, posted 11-28-2018 3:01 PM creation has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1908
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1222 of 1269 (844291)
11-27-2018 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1220 by creation
11-27-2018 5:28 PM


Re: Evidence of fountain of the deep
creation writes:

Origins so called sciences are beliefs used to explain evidences the godless ignorant way they prefer.

Thanks, I figured you flunked science and you keep on confirming it.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1220 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:28 PM creation has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1908
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1223 of 1269 (844292)
11-27-2018 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by creation
11-27-2018 5:31 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
creation writes:

The fact remains that the biblical flood was said to have caused a great great extinction!

Well, the bible claims that, but it's fiction so not evidence.

creation writes:

Your fable about the KT layer also claims the same thing.

No, actually that is YOUR fable about the KT layer.

The theory that the K-Pg asteroid impact was the cause of a mass extinction 65 million years ago has multiple kinds of evidence to support it and says nothing whatsoever about you fictional biblical flood.

creation writes:

The waters came from space and deep under the earth...

More of your fictional flood story.

creation writes:

If the crater was left by some mpact from under the earth to above, we would have the same striations etc.

If? If? Good grief, there is no such thing as "some impact from under the earth to above." That doesn't even make sense.

"The same striations etc."? What the hell are you talking about?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:31 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by creation, posted 11-29-2018 2:44 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19720
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1224 of 1269 (844324)
11-28-2018 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1217 by Pollux
11-27-2018 5:10 PM


concurrent evidence shows correlations
Hi RAZD et al.

I have just read AIG's article by Snelling on the Hawaiian-Emperor chain and admit to being somewhat gobsmacked. He acknowledges that the radiometric dates for the seamounts are what you would expect for the rate of current movement, but blandly says the rate of movement, RM decay, and volcanic activity, all changed in lock-step to produce this result. The wilful blindness is breath-taking.

Well, it is AIG... and Snelling ... so one would expect misleading information and misinformation.

What he is essentially saying is the evidence shows these things happening concurrently (in lockstep), which is what one would expect based on current knowledge.

This is a consistent problem creationists have when trying to alter reality to fit into a young earth scenario -- explaining why these correlations exist.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1217 by Pollux, posted 11-27-2018 5:10 PM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1227 by edge, posted 11-28-2018 10:16 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4450
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 1225 of 1269 (844327)
11-28-2018 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by creation
11-27-2018 5:31 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
The fact remains that the biblical flood was said to have caused a great great extinction!

Heh, heh ...

It is said by YOU, yes.

Your fable about the KT layer also claims the same thing.

The point being?

The waters came from space and deep under the earth...

According to you.

... iridium is said by science to come from there also!

Now you are going to draw some illogical conclusion?

If the crater was left by some impact from under the earth to above, ...

Something that has never been documented, observed or even predicted.

... we would have the same striations etc.

What striations are you talking about?

It's pretty clear that you have not been reading our posts. That is convenient for you but very discourteous as well as anti-science of you.

You spout random words such as 'iridium' and 'striations', and even 'above' and 'below' like a child's toys in a very small playpen. You really have no understanding of them, do you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:31 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1235 by creation, posted 11-29-2018 2:41 AM edge has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19720
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1226 of 1269 (844328)
11-28-2018 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1218 by creation
11-27-2018 5:23 PM


Still so wrong
Thank you for confirming what I posted in Message 1215.

Let's review. You offered us some tattered/reconstructed parchment written by some unknown on the back of an actual ancient scroll, that has missing kings, many unknown kings, and a plethora of spook kings!

Nope, I presented information from the accepted absolute Egyptian Chronology to date the artifacts.

quote:
Egyptian chronology

Scholarly consensus on the general outline of the conventional chronology current in Egyptology has not fluctuated much over the last 100 years. For the Old Kingdom, consensus fluctuates by as much as a few centuries, but for the Middle and New Kingdoms, it has been stable to within a few decades. This is illustrated by comparing the chronology as given by two Egyptologists, the first writing in 1906, the second in 2000 (all dates in the table are BC).[2]

DynastyBreasted (1906)Shaw (2000)
Early Dynastic Period of EgyptFirst
Second
3400–2980c. 3000–2686
Old Kingdom3rd2980–29002686–2613
Fourth2900–2750 2613–2494
(see link for more)......

The disparities between the two sets of dates result from additional discoveries and refined understanding of the still very incomplete source evidence. For example, Breasted adds a ruler in the Twentieth dynasty that further research showed did not exist. Following Manetho, Breasted also believed all the dynasties were sequential, whereas it is now known that several existed at the same time. These revisions have resulted in a lowering of the conventional chronology by up to 400 years at the beginning of Dynasty I.


As I said, mocking the chronology does not refute the chronology nor does it address the correlation.

... you try to use tree ring chronology that assumes fast present nature tree growth to date those kings! ...

Nope, I presented information from the scientifically accepted absolute (oak) tree-ring chronology that also dated the artifacts to the same time period (or slightly older within the margins of error), which you agree with:

I do not find it strange in any way that furniture from trees would contain the same pattern of C14 as trees from the time would!? ...

Of course the wood in the artifacts could have come from older stock lumber before it was used to build furniture, but that just make the matching dates stronger.

This also means that any concept involving fast tree ring growth has to explain how the furniture maker picked the exact to-the-minute sample of wood to make the artifact in order to make the correlation ...

... The only issue is how C14 fit in nature and what it did, where it used to come from...etc etc..in other words C14 only has meaning in a nature we know!

Nope, the only issue is the correlation between independently determined chronologies (which is evidence of a consistent nature).

Trees "breath" in CO2 from the atmosphere. The atmosphere contains isotopes of carbon, including Carbon-14, and use it to build molecules like Cellulose, (C6H10O5)n. Chemical molecules are blind to the isotopes involved, so the proportions of the different isotopes in the cellulose matches to proportions of the isotopes in the atmosphere at the time the molecules are assembled.

After this occurs there is no known mechanism to change those proportions ... except decay. This means (as you have agreed) that two samples with the same age would have the same levels of C-14 in the cellulose.

This means that an artifact's age can be determined by matching the actual factual measured decayed level of C-14 to the actual factual measured level of C-14 in the dendrochronology -- within the margin of error in measurement and within the margin of error caused by the wiggle pattern of atmospheric variation in C-14 content (from year to year caused by solar cycles, including the 11-year cycle).

You have not explained how the pattern of C-14 in the tree rings can exist by any means other than as a record of annual variations in atmospheric C-14 during original ring growth. Multiple rings per day would have the same C-14 unless you can show a mechanism to alter this by the hour, all around the world at the same time.

So you still have not explained the correlation, which demonstrates accuracy and precision in the data, regardless of how weak you think the information is to determine the dates.

Wrong on all counts, but fascinating consistency in ignorance maintained in spite of contrary evidence.

You keep misrepresenting what I post, and that means you don't understand it or you just don't care about being wrong or that you do it intentionally (troll behavior).

You keep being a perfect example of what is wrong with creationist arguments and behavior.

As I said in Message 1215: "This is a very strong piece of evidence that the ages presented here are valid and incontestable by creationists and their pipe-dreams of a young earth."

The correlations win again.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1218 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:23 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1234 by creation, posted 11-29-2018 2:35 AM RAZD has responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4450
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 1227 of 1269 (844329)
11-28-2018 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1224 by RAZD
11-28-2018 8:14 AM


Re: concurrent evidence shows correlations
Well, it is AIG... and Snelling ... so one would expect misleading information and misinformation.

Yes, it is Snelling, a person known for massive cognitive dissonance since he acknowledges deep time in his previous day job as an economic geologist where he worked on Precambrian uranium deposits in Australia.

So, it would be easy for him to dismiss old age dates and normal plate tectonics as having changed dramatically somewhere in the past so as to befuddle all of the scientists working in these areas. That way it's easy to selectively ignore huge amounts of data.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1224 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2018 8:14 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4450
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 1228 of 1269 (844330)
11-28-2018 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1216 by creation
11-27-2018 5:08 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
Easy peasy. Detrmining when a bottleneck 'happened' is based on current genes/DNA/genetics. Unless the nature was the same, why would molecules and atoms have behaved exactly as they now do? Why would the genetics of a former nature be the very same as now?? Proof?

Why would they not?

Please tell us how atoms and molecules did react in a previous state and then we can have a nice discussion about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1216 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:08 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1229 by Coragyps, posted 11-28-2018 10:35 AM edge has not yet responded
 Message 1233 by creation, posted 11-29-2018 2:24 AM edge has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1229 of 1269 (844331)
11-28-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1228 by edge
11-28-2018 10:27 AM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
Oh, while you’re at it, creation, your comments on how other elements transform into iridium, in either this nature on in your previous nature? With a little detail, please.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by edge, posted 11-28-2018 10:27 AM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1232 by creation, posted 11-29-2018 2:21 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15791
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(4)
Message 1230 of 1269 (844353)
11-28-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by creation
11-27-2018 5:31 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
creation writes:

The fact remains that the biblical flood was said to have caused a great great extinction!


Strictly speaking, the Ark was intended specifically to prevent any extinctions from happening.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:31 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1231 by creation, posted 11-29-2018 2:17 AM ringo has responded

  
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