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Author Topic:   Validity of Radiometric Dating
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 181 of 196 (760283)
06-19-2015 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:16 PM


Re: Interested
mindspawn writes:

All 3 types of rocks, sedimentary, igneous and metamorphic have been known to form rapidly

I'm interested in the evidence for this - I can't seem to find much.

Obviously igneous can cool/form quickly, and I supposed at least contact metamorphism can happen fast. Can you point me to a link to support this claim? It would be quite useful for me.

Thanks
JB


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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edge
Member
Posts: 3884
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 182 of 196 (760288)
06-19-2015 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:16 PM


Re: Interested
All 3 types of rocks, sedimentary, igneous and metamorphic have been known to form rapidly

They have also been known to form slowly.

And why is it so difficult to understand that fast processes do not indicate short time spans? Why can we not have a rapid process happening 100 my ago?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:16 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3884
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 183 of 196 (760289)
06-19-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by ThinAirDesigns
06-19-2015 1:29 PM


Re: Interested
I'm interested in the evidence for this - I can't seem to find much.

Well, it's not really a burning issue in geology. I can give you examples of rapid formation of each rock type, but they all require very specific conditions which don't control the deposition of the entire crust.

The Hawaiian Islands have been developing for tens of millions of years but any given rock body probably forms within minutes to thousands of years.

This is basically a stupid YEC argument.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 184 of 196 (760293)
06-19-2015 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by ThinAirDesigns
06-19-2015 1:29 PM


Re: Interested
Among sedimentary rocks, I believe I remember that beachrock can form quite rapidly in the right conditions.

Another example would be Fly Geyser, here in the Silver State. The rock, I presume, is travertine, and we know that the geyser has only existed since 1964.

Yes, it really looks like that.

Then there's Sunday Stone, formed from dust produced by coalmining.

Obviously the lithification can't predate the opening of the mine.


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ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 185 of 196 (760296)
06-19-2015 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2015 4:34 PM


Re: Interested
Wow -- two totally cool examples.

I reverse engineering your photo link and read the Sunday Stone story - fascinating. Like Varves.

Thanks
JB


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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 196 (760297)
06-19-2015 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2015 4:34 PM


Re: Interested
I am NOT arguing that rock can form in short time periods.
Mineral deposits and lime build up are not "rocks." Very often, when the "source" of the build up goes away, the mineral becomes weak and breaks up or dissolves.
Yes, all rocks are made of minerals, but not all minerals make "good" rock material.

That said, I agree ... those are a couple of great photos of mineral deposits.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5273
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(2)
Message 187 of 196 (760298)
06-19-2015 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2015 4:34 PM


Re: Interested
See? See!!!???
First gay marraige, and now gay rainbow geysers!!
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46&2
Junior Member (Idle past 594 days)
Posts: 24
From: Kailua-Kona
Joined: 04-10-2014


(6)
Message 188 of 196 (760301)
06-19-2015 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 5:48 PM


Re: Interested
quote:
The consilience is due to the decay being proportionate.

If the decay rates had changed significantly at any time in the last 50,000 years, it would be easily seen in the tree ring, lake varve, and ice core records. If the decay accelerated enough to account for a young earth, there would not be any measurable carbon in any ring, varve, or core which pre-dates such an event, since the accelerated decay would get rid of short-lived isotopes extremely rapidly.

Instead, what we observe is carbon concentration in the annual layers consistent with a constant decay rate with variable atmospheric carbon-14 concentration.

So, you would need to come up with a mechanism by which long-live isotopes are affected by a LOT, but short-lived ones, not so much, and result in consilient data.


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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3637
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 189 of 196 (760318)
06-20-2015 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by 46&2
06-19-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Interested
Yup.

When YECs get backed into a corner, they call it a world wide conspiracy to fake results. Then they claim it's just human nature acting, subconsciously tweaking to fir preconceptions.

Of course they have no idea how impossible it would be to fake all the consilience even if people consciously tried.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 190 of 196 (760330)
06-20-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by 46&2
06-19-2015 7:28 PM


Re: Interested
So, you would need to come up with a mechanism by which long-live isotopes are affected by a LOT, but short-lived ones, not so much, and result in consilient data.

In past discussions, mindspawn insisted that a small factor of 10-12 was all that was needed to fix up radioactive dating. He has argued for a method of changing the varve aging by 10-12 years (using a complete bogus salt-tide explanation that is discredit in some of the references he uses) that happened to exactly match the rate at which rate of speed up of nuclear decay. He also seems to forget how many tidal cycles there actually are in a year.

But during the discussion his need for a radioactive dating mismatch for older ages has expanded to the current level which I put at 10^5-10^6 increase in the past. But in fact, none of us actually know exactly what his current requirements are for C-14 dating or exactly at what rate the current slow rate of decay has kicked in. But with C-14, there is also the issue of the changing production rate, so C-14 may have a different mindspawn explanation.

His current position is idiotic on many levels. But in particular, given that different isotopes even of the same absorb element neutrons at different rates, his explanation cannot explain away agreement by various aging techniques. In fact, if we found a natural sample of Uranium with a reduced sample of daughter products, that would imply recent age rather than ancient age. So his proposal does not even work. It's just moronic.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
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46&2
Junior Member (Idle past 594 days)
Posts: 24
From: Kailua-Kona
Joined: 04-10-2014


Message 191 of 196 (760341)
06-20-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by JonF
06-20-2015 8:13 AM


Re: Interested
If they are going to fake the results, one wonders why they even bother spending money on the tests...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by JonF, posted 06-20-2015 8:13 AM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by RAZD, posted 06-20-2015 8:56 PM 46&2 has responded
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2015 9:44 PM 46&2 has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18653
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 192 of 196 (760373)
06-20-2015 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by 46&2
06-20-2015 1:13 PM


Re: Interested
Welcome to the fray, 46&2.

If they are going to fake the results, one wonders why they even bother spending money on the tests...

Because it creates a patina of scientific "truth" to fool the gullibles.

Another one to add to the list of creationist problems is the comparison between Polonium Halos and Uranium Halos ...

Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by 46&2, posted 06-20-2015 1:13 PM 46&2 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 193 of 196 (760374)
06-20-2015 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by 46&2
06-20-2015 1:13 PM


Re: Interested
If they are going to fake the results, one wonders why they even bother spending money on the tests...

They don't. They spend the money on Satanic orgies and then say they've done the tests.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by 46&2, posted 06-20-2015 1:13 PM 46&2 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15934
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 194 of 196 (760375)
06-20-2015 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by mikechell
06-19-2015 5:17 PM


Re: Interested
I am NOT arguing that rock can form in short time periods.

I never said you were. In fact, you've hardly posted on this thread. Unless you're mindspawn's sock-puppet.

Mineral deposits and lime build up are not "rocks." Very often, when the "source" of the build up goes away, the mineral becomes weak and breaks up or dissolves.
Yes, all rocks are made of minerals, but not all minerals make "good" rock material.

Even rocks that are not "good" rocks are rocks. And travertine is actually an excellent rock, people make floor tiles out of it.

More travertine terraces, Pamukkale, Turkey ... these presumably took rather longer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by mikechell, posted 06-19-2015 5:17 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
46&2
Junior Member (Idle past 594 days)
Posts: 24
From: Kailua-Kona
Joined: 04-10-2014


(2)
Message 195 of 196 (760380)
06-21-2015 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by RAZD
06-20-2015 8:56 PM


Re: Interested
RAZD writes:

Welcome to the fray, 46&2.

Thanks. I've been a lurker for a few years, even prior to my join date. I appreciate all the work you have put in here; incredibly thorough, and extremely informative.

Edited by 46&2, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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