Did Jesus die in vain?

The question is Did Jesus Die in Vain?My answer is that if it were possible for Jesus to die in vain the universe would not exist.The only reason anything at all exists is because of the work and Person of Jesus.

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You have no case with those two terms. The epistles of the apostles John and Peter, not to mention Paul, include Christ, Christian, and churches or church.

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The term christ or christian was not used by any deciple. Nor was the later status of Jesus as per the NT used here. This was an accumulative process, which emerged from Europe, which at no time observed monotheism, same as the greeks, romans and all of the early nations what constitutes Europe and the west.Contrastingly, Jews were always monotheists, since their inception. Abraham's past family was polytheist, and he marks the epochial breaway treshold: HE-BREW denotes one who went away, as in another, different direction. It would be an anomoly if the west did not cling to polytheism; it would also be anomoly for jews to not to follow monotheism.The NT has made its alledged son the primal factor, as opposed a rung on a ladder, as it should be. The pre-islamic arabian people rejected the NT - when they should have followed it first - this evidences that the NT is a european construct, and easilly affirmed by examining european history. Over 90% of all christians today are christian because their ancesters were enforced to follow this belief; the same applies wth the reason the NT malligns jews and calls them dis-believers. The arabs and jews resisted this belief: but they are hardly dis-believers in God. The christian belief of today is genuine; but what they believe is insane.

Still, its good to have a Plan B handy. There was no sacrifice, except by Jews. If you believe you could have resisted the roman decree of heresy, that is your choice - Jesus and all the apostles could not, nor would it have mattered an iota to the romans. Over a million Jews did resist this with Rome, then with the Roman catholic church. The Q you need to ask is, was the jews' sacrifice in vain, because only here there was a choice factor against the decree of heresy. Europe clearly failed this test. Paul sold out - nothing whatsoever to do with a Jew in Judea.

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students,
'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist
professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new
students to stand.'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely.' ;'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.''Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes.''Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment.
'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?''Yes sir, I would.''So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that.''But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could.
Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does
he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to
Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesu s good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'The student remains silent.'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a
glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er...yes,' the student says.'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.''Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God''That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in
this world?'
'Yes, sir.''Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?''Yes.''So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything,
then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle
that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred?
Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.''So who created them?'The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.
'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks
away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,'
he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to
identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?''No sir. I've never seen Him.''Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not.''Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have
you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or Go d for that
matter?''No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes.''According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?''Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has
with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'At the back of the room another student stands quietly for a moment before
asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?''Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.''And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room
suddenly become s very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have
lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white
heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We
can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any
further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be
able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.''Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits
energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.
Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is
only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.
Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the
opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer.'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?''Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't
darkness?''You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.''In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker, wouldn't you?'The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a
good semester. 'So what point are you making, yo ung man?''Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'The professor's face cannot hide his surp rise this time. 'Flawed? Can you
explain how?''You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You
argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.''It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully
understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be
ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death
is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.''Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a
monkey?''If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do.''Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'The professor beg ins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where
the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot
even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching
your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has
subsided.'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me
give you an example of what I mean.'The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has
ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.'Is there anyone here who has ever hear d the professor's brain, felt the
professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to
have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due
respect, sir.''So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face
unreadable.Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll
have to take them on faith.''Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,'
the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it
everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in
the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil.'To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does
not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like
darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of
God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes
when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'The professor sat down.The Student, Albert EinsteinEdited by BanjoBlazer, : Small Grammer Error

Of course you realise this story is a total lie. It never happened. It is just one of these obnoxious parables that certian christians pull, thinking it makes them look good.It's pretty pitiful to try to lie like that. Very poorly written,lots of logical fallacies, and one big lie to begin with.

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Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

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Let's say a parent wanted to teach his child the danger of fire. He lets him touch the fire, whereby the child cries in shock and pain. How cruel of that parent. Yet that child is now safer than before for the rest of his future life, and on retrospect will thank his parent.It seems to me the universe was created in wisdom, and this is seen wherever one looks. Nothing is superfluos or random, signifying there is a purpose, but we are not privy to it - same as the child who cried in pain and knew not its parent's reasoning. If there is a purpose and a future after this realm, it is better we go prepared - as opposed robots, or like nuts and bolts spewing out of a factory - for no reason at all. And no reason is a foremost assured negation of all factors of ToE, because premises such as adaptation is based on a reasoning: to survive and elevate - the polar oppositte of random!When we look back retrospectively, things do start to make sense, and appear to follow a critical and linear thread, measured from particle to human beings. But the real and true meaning of nothing out there, is best described by no negative forces impacting, where nothing bad ever happens. This would also mean, by subsequence, that nothing good happens; and good is only possible where there is an equally impacting negative force.The student retort is correct, and a very obvious one, and is referring to genesis, which says all things began as a duality of positive and negative, wherein they were seperated into two aspects. This says that all forms of life in its promodial instant, began as a dual-gendered entity and then split asunder, and there is no plausable or logical alternative to this ['Male and female created he them'/Gen.1/1]. The notion of a male first appearing, then finding an exact, corresponding female edition, is far fetched and outside the realm of scientific odds; also, it begs the question which was the first - none can be the first here.The notion of accumulative, compounding graduations, as per ToE, also fails all logics: it assumes there is an outside source which exactly impacts and also becomes recipient - which is like not only discovering a lock on Jupiter - but also an exactly fitting key; this in turn negates the factor of random, but is yet posited as a random occurence in ToE. Now it is logical when tracked back, that an 'intergration' [lock and key] - negates a random.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Not correct. "He said to them, But you who do you say that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ the Son of the living God." (Matt.16:16) Another error.The gospel first went to Europe when Paul and Silas came to south eastern Europe via Paul's prophetic dream, to Phillippi of Macodonia (Acts 16:6-40)Long before that time Peter had preached to the Jews the Jesus was the Messiah - the Christ(Acts 2:36). He as declared Christ to the Gentiles of the house of Cornelius also before this (Acts 10:36).Christ, the Son of the living God, was preached to Jew and Gentile from Pentacost from the new testament church's inception.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : A kinder gentlier debunking.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Acts and Mathews are not historical, and part of the same NT documents. I would be better impressed by a Roman or another contemporary writings. It is not debatable even by christian scholars who agree, there is no historical evidence of the gospels, which is based on belief - not on history. I am not questioning your beliefs.

You may not be questioning my belief but I am questioning yours.I am questioning your blind leap of wishful thinking that Luke wrote a document filled with myths, lies, and fancy imaginative details concocted up and passed on as a quasi historical document.You say you'd be "more impressed" with some extrabiblical writings. Well, I am totally unimpressed with your pretended objectivity.You don't impress me as an objective researcher of historical matters. You come accross to me as the anti-Christian bigot that you are.

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You may not be questioning my belief but I am questioning yours.

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This says only that one who does not accept the gospels is an unbeliever. Islam says the same - but uses different names only. So which is right, and how can you question anyone's belief on that basis? The factor of belief only clouds the issue, adds nothing, and takes away any means of establishing truth of belief. When belief is based on nothing else but belief per se, and the villification and flaunting of anyone who does not agree, is suspicious - and it is only affirmed when this is done via the rake and the sword. I know my history and yours.If you move outside of this one-sided belief coocoon, even as a means of playing devil's advocate, then you see the big picture. You see why millions were villified and killed, and you will see that when muslims say all non-muslims are infidels, this comes from doctrines of Rome's decrees of heresy, and this was taken over, in great error, by the medevial church - when it should have done the exact reverse. Then came islam and did the same - robbing Jerusalem, destroying a church erected there, and erecting a mosque on it. But what's underneath that church and mosque? Instead of hiding behind belief, and running away from real crimes, this is happening:'I WILL MAKE JERUSALEM AS A BURDEN UNTO THE NATIONS'We are encountering that prophesy - not the beliefs of the NT or the Quran. We are encountering a grotesque lie and robbery. We are encountering the dismal failure of the truth setting you free. This becomes clear when one sees the true big picture.Today's muslims are playing the church game - and the church is silent of it - when it should be demanding a rectification from muslims, not to emulate a horrific history, at least out of guilt, shame and fear of heaven: but you want to hide behind jesus and belief - thus you have muslims hiding behind ther belief and targeting the church in response. These are signs and omens.The Islamic world is chock full of the church's mildew, openly and impudently, broadcasting the church's blood libels, Protocols, and 100s of falsehoods of history - all derived from the church. Who's onus is it to cleanse and who is silent of it? Humanity's problems are not of the ozone layer or climate pollution, but the silent to such falsehooods and the twisting of truths via manipulations of belief. The bigotry is from the church, which remains selectively silent, when it should be screaming loudly about its horrific doctrines paraded today as truth in the muslim world.So humanity is facing a future of the same insanity - two king kongs both swearing oppositte beliefs, both hiding behind different figures, both claiming to overturn what is God's law. This is fine - it is the trait of a religion - except when they want to kill others, negate them, their history and heritage, call them bad names and beat their chests declaring belief. In the big picture, seen from a non-demoninational view, you see three groups performing this insane act - and the blame is only on two groups. You will have to conclude this as manifest and insane. And it comes from overturning God's laws, historical truth and the laws the world subscribes too, and it cannot be made legitimate by shouting beliefs and more bad names when it is highlighted as insane. Its fine if you don't subscribe to the most majestic laws that ever descended upon humanity - but your the one pretending it is right. Honesty beats an insane belief.There is a reason why the greatest revelation emerged with laws, and it may not be because those who held them as right are bigots: refusing to follow insane laws or the negation of God's laws and humanity's accepted laws cannot be anything other than a blind leap of wishful thinking.

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You don't impress me as an objective researcher of historical matters.

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There is nothing to research, because there is nothing. There is only the insanity of two king kongs beating their chests, while standing on twigs held together by false beliefs of history and truth. Both these groups will have to see the light of the OT - but not from your self-contradictory lens. Why are you not protesting of falsehoods paraded which not only deny the Jewish temple as a myth, when it also overturns your own gospels - which says one jesus visited that temple - what belief are you talking about - a selective one?AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.

No one claims that the temple Jesus visited was a myth, this is just another example of your very sloppy research.Jesus visited the temple rebuilt by Herod, and it is Solomon's temple that is believed to be a myth.

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No one claims that the temple Jesus visited was a myth

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If! - you disregard 1.2 Billions shouting this fact for 60 years in their media, mosques and schools. If! - you disregard the horrific silence of christians to Moses and David touted as Muslims. If! - you disregard that Jesus is declared as a Pretend Palestinian - I say pretend, because it is historically impossible for Jesus [0-30 CE] to be a Palestinian, a name which only emerged in 70 CE. Of course, it is a common lie the Jewish temple was a myth - same as the common lie muslim arabs are Palestinians - and both these falsehoods have been fostered by cowardly christian silence - who have an equally terrible agenda in remaining silent. Perhaps they are too busy cleansing the planet of ozone pollution - when they are the polluters themselves?This is just another example of your very sloppy research.

The Temple that people claim is a myth is the one built by Solomon, the one allegedly destroyed by the babylonians c. 587/6 BCE.The temple Jesus visited is NOT the one built by Solomon.The temple Jesus visited was the one rebuilt by King Herod, the one that was destroyed in 70 CE.The temple of Herod is not denied, the temple of Solomon is, Jesus visited the Herod temple, thus you are talking crap yet again. You are taking the term 'Palestine' out of context. It is just a useful objective term used by modern day scholars. Do you prefer that we call it Canaan? Only the Solomonic one, since there isn't a single shred of eivdence for it.No one denies the temple that Jesus visited.The rest of your post is just a fundy Jewish rant, which demonstrates just what religion does to the human brain.Countless millions of people from a handful of religions, taking the fairytales in their ancients books as having some basis in reality will finish off the planet.The sane atheists, who help others through genuine love, will all be wiped out with the rest of the world because we refuse to live inside a fairytale book.It isn't even as if anything in the Bible is remotely believable, or even logically sound, and most of the planet cling to these obvious fantasies are being true.Theists really do belong on another planet, and leave all us sane people alone on this one to get one with helping each other out and living in peace and harmony, something that the world will never have as long as there are religions and religious fundies around.Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all these other crazy faiths have all ruined our world. I wish you would all just bugger off some where and leave us decent people alone.Edited by Brian, : spelling

Jeez, what a load of b#######!
Good god, what a small world in that mind-set.
Don't you give any credit to the rest of humanity?

Hallelujah to that!I am sick of being told to respect others beliefs systems when they clearly oppose mine. Religous belief systems drive me nuts! Crazy! Crazy! Giving control of their own lives up to a fictious god. Unbelievable! What are they so afraid of?