Confession of a former christian

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Wrong. The resemblance is because both derive from the Phoenician alphabet, really an abjad, or proto-alphabet, because it has only consonant sounds. The Greek alphabet is the first to include vowel as well as consonant sounds, and is therefore the first full alphabet. This alphabet dates from the 9th or 8th century B.C.

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Knock, knock. You will find no greek alphabticals pre-300. You will find that the greeks 'seperated' the vowels of the hebrew, as with its numerlas, as opposed inventing the vowels.

Will I not?

Bullshit! As already demonstrated by bluegenes.Furthermore: Greek alphabet - Wikipedia:

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The Greek alphabet (Greek: ‘ ) is a set of twenty-four letters that has been used to write the Greek language since the late 9th or early 8th century BC. It was the first alphabet in the narrow sense, that is a writing system that uses a separate symbol for each vowel and consonant.[2] It is the oldest alphabetic script in continuous use today. The letters were also used to represent Greek numerals, beginning in the 2nd century BC.

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The Greek alphabet is descended from the Phoenician alphabet, and unrelated to Linear B and the Cypriot syllabary, earlier writing systems for Greek.

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. . .

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Time period ~800 BC to the present[1]

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Phoenician alphabet - Wikipedia:

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The Phoenician alphabet is a continuation of the Proto-Canaanite alphabet, by convention taken to originate around 1050 BC. It was used for the writing of Phoenician, a Northern Semitic language. The Phoenician alphabet is classified as an abjad in that it records only consonant sounds (with the addition of matres lectionis). However, the Greek alphabet, a descendant of Phoenician, modified the script to represent vowel phonemes as well.

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Phoenician became one of the most widely used writing systems, spread by Phoenician merchants across the Mediterranean world, where it was assimilated by many other cultures and evolved. Many modern writing systems thought to have descended from Phoenician cover much of the world. The Aramaic alphabet, a modified form of Phoenician, was the ancestor of the modern Arabic and Hebrew scripts, as well as the Brhm script, the parent writing system of most modern abugidas in India, Southeast Asia, Tibet, and Mongolia. The Greek alphabet (and by extension its descendants such as the Latin, the Cyrillic and the Coptic), was a direct successor of Phoenician, though certain letter values were changed to represent vowels.

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. . .

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History of the alphabet {Refer to the page for proper indentation and "tree structure" of descent}
Middle Bronze Age 19 c. BCE

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Ugaritic 15 c. BCE
Phoenician 14-11 c. BCE
Paleo-Hebrew 10 c. BCE
Samaritan 6 c. BCE
Aramaic 8 c. BCE
Brhm & Indic 6 c. BCE
Tibetan 7 c. CE
Khmer/Javanese 9 c. CE
Hebrew 3 c. BCE
Syriac 2 c. BCE
Arabic 4 c. CE
Pahlavi 3 c. BCE
Avestan 4 c. CE
Greek 9 c. BCE
Etruscan 8 c. BCE
Latin 7 c. BCE
Runic 2 c. CE
Gothic 3 c. CE
Armenian 405 CE
Glagolitic 862 CE
Cyrillic 10 c. CE
Paleohispanic 7 c. BCE
Epigraphic South Arabian 9 c. BCE
Ge'ez 5-6 c. BCE

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Meroitic 3 c. BCE
Ogham 4 c. CE
Hangul 1443 CE
Canadian syllabics 1840 CE
Zhuyin 1913 CE

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So you see, the Greek alphabet did indeed pre-date 300 BCE ... by at least 500 yearsIronically, it's the Hebrew alphabet that only dates back to 300 BCE.We all see how incredibly wrong you are about those things you claim that we are able to check. Guess what that tells us about those things you would claim that we cannot check.In case you are incapable of guessing, the answer is "Bullshit!"Nice witness you provide. It is a great help in the spread of atheism.

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{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.
Robert Colbert on NPR

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It is the oldest alphabetic script in continuous use today. The letters were also used to represent Greek numerals, beginning in the 2nd century BC.

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This is a fake - the operable means to justify it is vested in the term 'continuous' - meaning, for 2000 years the hebrew was not in active use. But it is not older, nor are the 9C BCE actual. The psalms of King David are older, and the OT again still older. Bluegenes did not show an earlier alphabetical greek writings.You will find such depictions are made to foster christianity's predominance premise, and negate Judaism's history - this is common throughout most of such writings, and the same scenario will be seen with regards islam [Moses was a muslim, etc]. But if truth is the pursuit, then you must ask for hard copy proof to back those stats in wiki, an enclyclopedia which has been numerously taken to task and had to implement corrections.Now here's hard copy proof of the Tel House of David discovery, also 9th C, but with historically vindicated names of people who did live in this time. This is a find which is dated 100 years after David, and is a monument which honors him. David lived a mere 240 years after Moses, and his writings mention Moses and the OT narratives throughout the psalms, and also in the book of Kings:

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The House of David Inscription

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The House of David Inscription (also known as the “Tel Dan Inscription”) was discovered in 1994 during excavations at the ancient city of Dan. It is considered by many to be the first reference to the "House of David" discovered outside the biblical text.

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The House of David Inscription appears to be a fragment of a victory monument erected by a king of Damascus (Aram) during the 9th century BC, some 250 years after King David’s reign. The fragment specifically mentions victories over a “king of Israel” (probably Joram) and a king of the “House of David” (probably Ahaziah).
The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) currently resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.

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© 2005 The Foundation for Biblical Archaeology
See our COPYRIGHT NOTICE
The House of David Inscription

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Bluegenes showed you alphabetical Greek writing 200 years older than the date you gave as a challenge. Rubbish. The Greek writing is from Pagan culture, and has nothing to do with Christianity, obviously. Christianity was certainly a Jewish invention, not a Greek one. That's why it's so obviously silly.

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The Greek alphabet (Greek: ‘ ) is a set of twenty-four letters that has been used to write the Greek language since the late 9th or early 8th century BC.

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Which document exists of that date - which museum is it housed in? The rule is, archeology cannot only give estimations, and what appears the case by their own preferences - not when there is hard copy evidence elsewhere.

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It was the first alphabet in the narrow sense, that is a writing system that uses a separate symbol for each vowel and consonant.[2]

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The vowels and numerals were already contained in the Hebrew: how else would it be possible to conduct a cencus, in the millions, with age and gender sub-totals, as per the book of exodus? You will find that seperate vowels, which was later picked up by the Hebrews when they became dispersed, was not a requirement: check any street sign or newspaper in Israel, and you see no vowels - these are phonations which are retained by the inflections of the alphabet positions in relation to another alphabet. Previously, the vowels were alphabets, but the greeks seperated them, as they did with numerals - because that is how they wrote before meeting the israelites after they defeated Persia.

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It is the oldest alphabetic script in continuous use today. The letters were also used to represent Greek numerals, beginning in the 2nd century BC.

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You can see thus, the greek numerals were a new factor: 2 C BCE.

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So you see, the Greek alphabet did indeed pre-date 300 BCE ... by at least 500 years

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No, I don't see. The greek is listed later than Hebrew:Ugaritic 15 c. BCE
Phoenician 14-11 c. BCE
Paleo-Hebrew 10 c. BCE
Samaritan 6 c. BCE
Aramaic 8 c. BCE
Brhm & Indic 6 c. BCE
Tibetan 7 c. CE
Khmer/Javanese 9 c. CE
Hebrew 3 c. BCE
Syriac 2 c. BCE
Arabic 4 c. CE
Pahlavi 3 c. BCE
Avestan 4 c. CE
Greek 9 c. BCEHowever, where is the alphabetical hard copy, dated 9 BCE? The illiad was not alphabetical, and its datings disputed.

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Ironically, it's the Hebrew alphabet that only dates back to 300 BCE.

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Oh really? Have you never considered that the Temple of Solomon, dated 850 BCE, was in consequence of the OT's written history and commands, and that some of the scrolls packages contained new writings, such as the Temple scroll? Do you think the scrolls, dated upto 300 BCE - were invented in the same year - rather than reflecting history going back 2000 years?You will see from this link, that so-called archologists not long ago declared david and solomon a myth. But they have never recovered from shame, their careers lost forever:

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Israel Archaeology

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Let's begin our look at Israel archaeology with the "Merneptah Stele" (also known as the Israel Stele), which is an upright stone slab measuring over seven feet tall that contains carved hieroglyphic text dating to approximately 1230 BC. This Egyptian monument describes the military victories of Pharaoh Merneptah and includes the earliest mention of "Israel" outside the Bible. Although the specific battles covered by the stele are not included in the Bible, the stele establishes outside evidence that the Israelites were already living as a people in ancient Canaan by 1230 BC. 1 In addition to the Stele, a large wall picture was discovered in the great Karnak Temple of Luxor (ancient Thebes), which shows battle scenes between the Egyptians and Israelites. These scenes have also been attributed to Pharaoh Merneptah and date to approximately 1209 BC. 2 The Karnak Temple also contains records of Pharaoh Shishak's military victories about 280 years later. Specifically, the "Shishak Relief" depicts Egypt's victory over King Rehoboam in about 925 BC, when Solomon's Temple in Judah was plundered. 3 This is the exact event mentioned in two books of the Old Testament. 4

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Outside Egypt, we also discover a wealth of evidence for the early Israelites. The "Moabite Stone" (Mesha Stele) is a three-foot stone slab discovered near Dibon, east of the Dead Sea that describes the reign of Mesha, King of Moab, around 850 BC. 5 According to the Book of Genesis, the Moabites were neighbors of the Israelites. 6 This stele covers victories by King Omri and King Ahab of Israel against Moab, and Mesha's later victories on behalf of Moab against King Ahab's descendants. 7 The "Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser" is a seven-foot, four-sided pillar of basalt that describes the victories of King Shalmaneser III of Assyria, including defeats of Tyre, Sidon and "Jehu, Son of Omri." Dated to about 841 BC, the Obelisk (now in the British Museum) was discovered in the Northwest Palace at Nimrud and shows Israel's King Jehu kneeling before the Assyrian king in humble tribute. 8

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OK, everything I found establishes that the ancient Israelites did in fact exist. However, there's a big difference between historic generalities and the specific people and events mentioned in the Bible. For instance, King David and his son, Solomon, are huge parts of Jewish history in the Old Testament. Shouldn't we find archaeology in Israel to support for their reigns and activities as well?

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In one of the books I picked up, I was surprised to read that the historical David never existed. Another article I read referred to the well-established "David Myth" -- a literary invention drawn from heroic tradition to establish the Jewish monarchy...

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Kathleen Kenyon, a very credible archaeologist I came to trust and enjoy, declared:

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To many people it seems remarkable that David and Solomon still remain unknown outside the Old Testament or literary sources derived directly from it. No extra-biblical inscription, either from Palestine or from a neighboring country, has yet been found to contain a reference to them. 9
Well, I guess we don't have to find archaeological evidence for every person and place mentioned in the Bible, but David was huge to me. I discovered he's mentioned 1,048 times in the Bible -- the subject of 62 chapters and the writer of probably 73 Psalms in the Old Testament. Boy, I really wanted to see some evidence for that guy...

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Guess what? Since Kenyon made the above statement in roughly 1987, the validity of the ancient biblical record regarding King David received a huge lift!

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In 1993, archaeologists discovered a stone inscription at the ancient city of Dan, which refers to the "House of David." The "House of David Inscription" (Tel Dan Inscription) is the first ancient reference to King David outside the Bible. 10 Specifically, the stone is a victory pillar of a King in Damascus dated a couple hundred years after David's reign, which mentions a "king of Israel of the House of David." Over the next year, more inscription pieces were discovered at the site, which allowed archaeologists to reconstruct the entirety of the declaration: "I killed Jehoram son of Ahab king of Israel and I killed Ahaziahu son of Jehoram king of the House of David." Remarkably, these are Jewish leaders linked to the lineage of David as recorded in the Bible. 11

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The archaeology of Israel was proving powerful!

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Israel History

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Israel history goes on and on... Event after event... Reference after reference... The biblical record of "Israel history" never disappointed me...

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The defeats of Samaria and Ashdod to Sargon II, king of Assyria, as recorded on his palace walls. 1 The military campaign of the Assyrian king Sennacherib against Judah, as recorded on the Taylor Prism. 2 The siege of Lachish by Sennacherib, as recorded on the Lachish Reliefs. 3 The destruction of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah, as recorded on the Tablet of Nabopolasar.4 The defeat of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, as recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles. 5 The Babylonian captivity of Jehoiachin, king of Judah, as recorded in the Babylonian Ration Records. 6 The defeat of Babylon by the Medes and Persians, as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder. 7 The freeing of the Jewish captives from Babylon by Cyrus the Great, as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder. 8

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The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud. The east gate of Shechem where Gaal and Zebul watched the forces of Abimelech approach the city. The Temple of Baal in Shechem, where the citizens of Shechem took refuge when Abimelech attacked the city. The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought during the struggle for the kingship of Israel. The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived. The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death. The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah to provide water during the Assyrian siege. The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast and Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall. The royal palace, gate and square at Susa where the events of Esther, the queen to the Persian king Xerxes, and Mordecai, her cousin, took place. 9

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Wow! Only a century and a half ago, European academics in the "Age of Enlightenment" declared that the Bible (especially the Old Testament) was fictional history. Their primary rationale was that empires such as the Hittites, and kings such as David, didn't really exist. Well, now we have dramatic "archaeological support" for their existence! Moreover, in recent years, the archaeological finds have increased dramatically! Therefore, if the rationale for rejecting Old Testament scripture was lack of corroborating historical and archaeological evidence, shouldn't the same rationale exist for validating the Old Testament record now that we're finding such evidence?

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Although the general strife in the Middle East has slowed archaeological endeavors somewhat, the Bible's reliability as a historical document continues to be confirmed by the field of archaeology every day. Although absence of archaeological evidence does not necessarily mean absence of the people, place or event, it may be stated emphatically that no archaeological discovery has ever refuted a Biblical reference.

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Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

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No archeological discovery has ever controverted a single biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.10
For me, the study of Israel's history and archaeology was really becoming an unexpected and exciting journey...

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Bullshit!Did you even bother to look at the photo of that inscription? That is not in the Hebrew alphabet. Hello? What kind of deception are you trying to perform?We have samples of the Greek alphabet being used hundreds of years before the 300 BCE that you claim. Now we've found a source that places the origin of the Hebrew alphabet at 300 BCE. Can you produce any samples of the Hebrew alphabet that precedes that date appreciably? Your sole attempt so far failed spectacularly miserably.Remember, we're not talking about the representation of the languages by other earlier alphabets, but rather the alphabets themselves.PS
You are doing an incredibly effective job of bringing this back on-topic. The OP describes how examination of the bullshit that one's religious leaders have fed the OP all his life had led to him realizing for the bullshit that it is and thus to the decision to turn his back on it.A friend at church described how he had used to be a fervent fundamentalist Christian. And how he'd see things everyday that contradicted his beliefs, so he just turned a blind eye to them. Day after day, more and ever more. Until he no longer had the strength to continue the self-deception. So he examined his religion and applied the Matthew 7:20 test, which his religion failed. So now he describes himself as a complete atheist and thorough humanist and is much more fulfilled as such.PPS
Since I strongly feel that you will still miss the obvious and blatant truth:
If you are going to make claims to support your beliefs, then make the utmost effort to ensure that those claims are truthful.Using such transparently false claims only damages your position. Unless, of course, your purpose is to discredit those beliefs.Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.Edited by dwise1, : PSEdited by dwise1, : PPS

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{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.
Robert Colbert on NPR

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Did you even bother to look at the photo of that inscription? That is not in the Hebrew alphabet. Hello? What kind of deception are you trying to perform?

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We have samples of the Greek alphabet being used hundreds of years before the 300 BCE that you claim. Now we've found a source that places the origin of the Hebrew alphabet at 300 BCE. Can you produce any samples of the Hebrew alphabet that precedes that date appreciably? Your sole attempt so far failed spectacularly miserably.

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Below is an excerpt from a long but highly interesting article. It shows the early examples of hebrew, and also suggests Hebrew predates the pheonecien, resembling more the earlier canaanite writings. However, with the latter canaanite, [IMHO] this is also incorrect: we know the egyptians were closely associated with the canaanites, even ruling them for many centuries - yet the egyptians never spoke or knew hebrew or hebrew writings, nor are there any canaanite aphabetical books anywhere: IOW, if canaanite predated hebrew, we should see either a host of egyptian writings in canaanite, or we should see canaanite manuscripts in alphabeticals, with historical depictions. Nothing like this exists.What appears to be the case of such conclusions by archeologists, is not vested in proof of alphabetical, historically depicted books or manuscripts from canaan - rather, it is based only on some stray alphabets appearing similar. These are lab conclusions, with no allignment in historical evidence, which IMHO, transcends. This article also shows that the greeks themselves saw the Hebrew predating the greek and the phonecian, even declaring it the first alphabetical writings [also concluded by the esteemed Encyclopedia Britanica, which is by far an older and more reliable source than wiki]. I have asked myself, how come there are no alphabetical, historical books from so many nations, all mightier and older than Israel? This issue is enigmatic, as those nations also prevailed for upto a 1000 years after Israel emerged!

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Literacy was both expected and common in the culture of the Exodus, contrary to the critics of the Bible.

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The development of Alphabets
Archeology has clearly demonstrated the existence of a written alphabetic communication dating to the time of Abraham, and an even earlier cuneiform methods. There are several theories about the development of alphabets. An interesting point to note, the early Hebrew Alphabet is nearly identical with the Phoenician Alphabet, which is dated as early as the time of Joseph. Greeks writers have even proposed the Hebrews as the inventors of the alphabet. Quoting Encyclopedia Britannica,
Over the centuries, various theories have been advanced to explain the origin of alphabetic writing, and, since classical times, the problem has been a matter of serious study. The Greeks and Romans considered five different peoples as the possible inventors of the alphabet”the Phoenicians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Cretans, and Hebrews. Among modern theories are some that are not very different from those of ancient days. Every country situated in or more or less near the eastern Mediterranean has been singled out for the honor.
The early Hebrew alphabet, the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet could have been the source behind the Phoenician alphabet; since many agree that the Proto-Canaanite alphabet preceded the Phoenician, which was the source behind the Greek alphabet which is the source behind the alphabets in the Western world. Encyclopedia Britannica continues regarding Hebrew as the origin of today’s alphabets.

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Wellhausen based his theory on the idea that writing did not appear amongst the Hebrews until many years after Moses. R.K. Harrison, rejects the basis of the Wellhausen theory, writing,
“Contrary to the contentions of Wellhausen, who maintained, against archaeological evidence already available in his day, that writing did not appear among the Hebrews until the early monarchy; they had the means of producing written records at their disposal from very early times”[2]

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Hebrew is a Semitic language, and Abraham was from the city of Ur, which was a very literate culture even during the times of Abraham. From the region of Babylon, one of the most famous written documents preserved in stone is the Code of Hammurabi (1792-1750 B.C.), who lived within 250 years of the life of Abraham. On the stele,[3] the laws of ancient Babylon were recorded for generations to come. Hammurabi, also lived 300-years before the time of Moses. So Wellhausen contention of Hebrews not being able to write down the events in their past is not founded on fact, but is completely without merit.
In addition to the Code of Hammurabi, there are many proofs of the “Literate” culture, which both Abraham and Moses existed.
Moses who is credited with writing the Torah (Five books of Moses; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) was educated in the house of Pharaoh, he would have been literate not only in Egyptian but the surrounding cultures in his day. In the book of Job, dated to the Patriarchal period (2100-1800 B.C.) before the time of Moses, Job refers to writing and the material on which one writes. Writing with an Iron pen upon stone and lead is clearly described; lead a soft material could be inscribed with an Iron stylus. Soft Clay was also a material used to write upon, preserving the words of the writer.

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Other documents exist clearly documenting the existence of writing in the time of Moses, and the invasion of the Hebrews into the land of Canaan. These documents are the Letters from the Tell El-Amarna. A peasant woman digging in the dirt discovered these letters in 1887. The letters were written in Akkadian (Babylonian) script with some Canaanite glosses. These letters dated to the conquest of Joshua, mention the invasion of Habiru (Hebrews).
Also Confirming the written language outside of the Bible is the Moabite stone[4] (Mesha Stele), which is dated to the time of King Mesha of Moab. He was a contemporary of Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (870-848 BC), and Joram, king of the northern kingdom of Israel (852-841 BC). The Moabite Stone gives King Mesha’s point of view of the events of 2 Kings 3. The alphabet and the language on the stone were both Moabite, which a language closely related to Hebrew. Encyclopedia Britannica says the following on the Moabite Language

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Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Apologies if someone's already mentioned this, but the excavations at Osteria dell'Osa (ancient Gabii) in Latium, Central Italy, provide some evidence of the written Greek alphabet in use circa 8th c. BC.

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

With good reason though. You are serious, and my tongue is very much in my cheek. Evidence for this is what? [qs] where the heck do u think the greeks got their script to translate from -[/qs[]Who says that they had to translate from scripts? Oral traditions did the rounds for centuries, and then became written down, so which scripts were used for the Septuagint? Nonsense. What about Akhenaten, the pharaoh whose city at Tell el Amarna yielded thousands of ancient texts, which predate any biblical writings by at least a thousand years? Translation from what? Sorry, but the Tel Dan Stele does not confirm anything biblical. The Tel Dan Stele NEVER mentions Moses. God knows where you get this from? Afraid not mate, it takes a lot of manipulation to get the Tel Dan Stele to say what Biran wants it to say. And no Israelites either for that matter.But, on a serious note, Phoenician alphabet predates Hebrew by a long way (Ras Shamra texts), and there MAY be an even older alphabet from India.

.Edited by Brian, : double post

These names are still under debate though/ Much of the text is missing and Biran basically inserted anything he wanted to try and make the missing text say what he wanted it too. Actually it doesn’t. This is contrary to what the Bible tells us though.Moses was part of the Exodus group, and the Exodus apparently took place 480 years before the 4th year of Solomon’s reign.1 Kings 6:1 [i] In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD. [/qs]Before Solomon came to the throne, David had reigned for forty years and six months2 Samuel 5:5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years David died aged 70.2 Sam 5:4 David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned forty years.So, if you even wish to say that David was born 240 years after Moses died, there is a huge chronological discrepancy.The fourth year of Solomon’s reign would thus be 74 years after David was born, so that would leave 406 years between the Exodus and the birth of David. Moses was part of the Exodus group that was alleged to have left Egypt 406 years before David was born, and Moses died forty years after the Exodus, just before the Israelites ”entered’ into Canaan. Thus we have a 366 year gap between the death of Moses and the birth of David. There is not a single shred of evidence that there ever was a king David, and no evidence of a United Monarchy either.

DOUBLE POSTEdited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

My recall of this is, it is where romulus and remus emerged from, and tomstones in the 100s have been located, dating back to the 8 C BCE. I know of no alphabetical, contemporary writings from here, and would find it an anomoly such writings were not again seen subsequently from Greece. At this time Greece had not entered the Arabian region.

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This is contrary to what the Bible tells us though.

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There are variances for the exact datings, and the hebrew calendar works on different calcs. However, the basic point is, that David reigned 3000 years ago, and Moses is dated 3,200 to 3,500. While these are still not the oldest finds from Israel, they are scientifically backed, and you cannot choose which finds you want to support or not. IMHO, there is greater evidences of David than any other figure of this space-time, with back-up writings from outside nations.

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There is not a single shred of evidence that there ever was a king David, and no evidence of a United Monarchy either.

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You are amazing - perhaps you don't want to accept it? Here's some more fodder:

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http://graal.co.uk/houseofdavid.html

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The House Of David Inscription

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For some inexplicable reason, it has become fashionable in a current genre of Bible assailing literature for writers to make uncorroborated statements concerning a supposed lack of Old Testament evidence in certain respects. Among these assaults are those which claim there are no archaeological references concerning the Judah Kings of the Royal House of David (c. 1008-586 BC) and the Jerusalem Temple of King David's son Jedidiah - better known as King Solomon.

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Such statements are completely untrue and, in respect of the House of David and the Temple of Yahweh, it is worth citing some archaeological examples contemporary with the biblical period in question.

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In 1993 a discovery was made at Tel Dan (at the foot of Mount Hermon) which became the most significant artifact in the modern State of Israel. It is now regarded as a national treasure since it proves, irrespective of the Bible, that the House of David was an historic reality.

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Excavations began at Tel Dan, Northern Israel, in 1966 under the direction of archaeologist Avrham Biran. After a few years of digging, a monumental mud-brick gate was unearthed, with an arch constructed by the Canaanites in around 1850 BC - long before the Israelites arrived in the region. In those times the Dan location was called Leshem (Joshua 19:47) or Laish (Judges 18:27). The Canaanite Gate is now a conservation project of the Israeli Antiquities Authority.

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Also revealed, before cessation of the 33-year dig in 1999, were the city walls, an Israelite sanctuary, sacred pillars, a tomb and various artifacts.

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The Canaanite Gate

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Among the city ruins, in front of the Gate were found the remnants of a large basalt stele - the largest fragment of which is 32 x 22 cm (12.5 x 8.75 inches). On this, thirteen lines of Aramaic script are partially preserved from around 825 BC, soon after the time of King Ahab of Israel and David's lineal descendant, King Jehosaphat of Judah.

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The inscription was created by King Hazael of Aram-Damascus in about 825 BC, and it relates to his father, Hadad II, being victorious in battle against Jehosaphat (c. 860 BC). The most important aspect of the text, however, is that it specifically relates to Hadad defeating the "foot soldiers, charioteers and horsemen of the King of the House of David".

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The much prized Tel Dan Inscription now resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.

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The House of David Inscription

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The Moabite Stone

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Another kingly stele boasting of conflict with the House of David is the Moabite Stone from about 860 BC. This 42 by 24 inch black basalt monument (107 x 61 cms) was discovered in 1868 at Dhiban, 20 miles east of the Dead Sea (across from En-gedi) and is now housed in The Louvre Museum, Paris. As reported in Time Magazine, December 1995, it is the most extensive inscription ever recovered from ancient Palestine.

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The Moabite Stone contains 36 lines of Phoenician script which relate to the rebellion of King Mesha of Moab against King Jehoram of Israel and King Jehosaphat of Judah. This battle is recounted in the Old Testament 2-Kings 3:5-27.

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The Mesha Stele of Moab

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Discovered by the German missionary, F.A. Klein, the Moabite Stone caused another battle when the Berlin Museum expressed an interest in removing it to the West. The Jewish Encyclopedia relates that, on hearing of this, local Arabs heaved it out of the earth, lit fires around it and doused it with cold water so that it fragmented. Mediation was subsequently conducted by the French Consulate in Jerusalem, whose conservators restored the artifact, while offering enough money to purchase the House of David Moabite Stone and placate the inhabitants of Dhiban.

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House of the Lord

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The Jerusalem Temple of David's son, King Solomon, was something of an enigma until the 1970s. Prior to that, no physical evidence had been discovered in respect of the Temple itself - the House of Yahweh or House of the Lord, as it was more correctly called (1-Kings 3:1, 6:1).

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The Old Testament book of 1-Kings 6:2-38 gives details of the construction, which was demolished by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon 400 years later in 586 BC. A new, larger Temple was built on the same site by Prince Zerubbabel of Jerusalem from 535 BC, and this was later extended by the Seleucid Kings, the Hasmonaeans, and finally by King Herod the Great in the 1st century BC.

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In his 1st-century Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus described Jerusalem in the Gospel era, stating that the Herodian Temple was "incredible". Set within a complex of over 35 acres, where the El-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock now stand, it was the most magnificent construction of the era - far bigger than the Acropolis in Athens. However, the mighty edifice was demolished by the Roman legions of General Titus in AD 70.

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Beneath King Solomon's Temple
Painted on site, 1870, for the London Illustrated News
Archaeologists, working from the middle 1800s, established the foundations of the second and third Temples (those of Zerubbabel and Herod), but it was not until 1973 that a concerted attempt was made to reveal the first House of the Lord - the Temple of King Solomon. The archaeological project was led by Prof. Benjamin Mazar of the Hebrew University, with field architect Dr. Leen Ritmeyer, who wrote up the account for the Biblical Archaeology Society.

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With the aid of records from the Greek historian, Strabo (64 BC - AD 21), the team worked on site for five years, making many new discoveries, among which (at the lowest course level) were the original footings of King Solomon's Temple, with masonry quite different to that of the later periods. Also, to their astonishment, in the floor of the Holy of Holies above was the carved rectangular depression (48 inches by 31 inches), where the Ark of the Covenant once stood (1-Kings 8:6).

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It transpired that the Solomonid footings had actually been logged some time previously by the Palestine Exploration Fund, but the information had not become widely known. It was known however that, in the tunnels beneath, a British military expedition had made a significant discovery in 1894. There, in the labyrinthine complex of arched corridors and cisterns, they discovered a 12th-century Templar cross, a broken Templar sword and other related artifacts. These were remnants from the early 1100s, when the Knights Templars excavated for the Ark and the secreted treasures of Jerusalem.

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Ostracons and the Pomegranate

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There are a few archaeologically discovered artifacts from the first Temple's operative era which make specific reference to Solomon's House of the Lord. One of these is known as the Temple Ostracon, which resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem. This pottery shard from about 800 BC (in the Jerusalem reign of King Joash of Judah) clearly mentions, in old Hebrew, the Temple of the 'Bayit Yahweh' - the Jerusalem House of the Lord.

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House of the Lord Inscription

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Another ostracon referenced by the Biblical Archaeology Review (November/December 1997) is a tax receipt written on a clay tablet in respect of a subscription of 3 shekels to the House of the Lord. It comes from much the same period as the Temple Ostracon, when the Jewish people were obliged to contribute towards the House of Yahweh's infrastructure by way of a Temple tax.

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A particularly interesting artifact from the Solomon Temple reign of King Uzziah of Judah, c. 750 BC, is a small ivory pomegranate - vase shaped with a long neck and petals. Around its shoulder, in an early Hebrew script, is inscribed "Sacred donation for the priests of the House of the Lord ". Like the Temple Ostracon and the David Tablet, this item is also held at the Israel Museum.

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The Temple Pomegranate

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The Joash Tablet

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Recently, the press and media have been discussing another inscribed tablet that was discovered in the summer of 2000 at Jerusalem's Temple Mount. The find was made by Islamic Trust renovators of the El-Aqsa mosque which occupies part of the Haram el Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) site, and the tablet is know held by an Israeli collector.

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Partially broken, the Arkosic Dead Sea sandstone tablet measures 31 x 24 x 7 cms, and carries 15 lines of text written in ancient Hebrew with elements of Aramaic and old Phoenician. It describes repairs to Solomon's Temple as ordered by Solomon's descendant, King Joash of Judah in the 9th century BC.

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Joash (Jehoash) reigned about 839-799 BC and, in accord with this, carbon-14 dating by Israel's Geological Institute, under Shimon Ilani, has authenticated the inscription as being around 2,800 years old. The Institute's director, Amos Bean, reported that they had discovered flecks of gold burnt into the stone, indicating that it was probably in the Temple when the building was destroyed by invading Babylonians in about 586 BC.

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In line with the Bible text of 2-Kings 12:1-6 and 11-17, the tablet describes how the King instructed the priests to "take holy money . to buy quarry stones and timber and copper and labour to carry out the duty with faith."

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The Joash Tablet

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The Vessel and the Vine

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In the header graphic of this page are two Jerusalem coins from the distant BC years - one which bears a chalice, and the other a bunch of grapes.

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From around 3500 BC, a chalice (or ceremonial cup) was the hereditary symbol of the Mesopotamian "Gra-al" - the royal bloodline of the ancient kings and queens. In subsequent Israelite times, the descending family line (which became the dynasty of the House of David) was classified as The Vine. Psalm 80:8 reads, 'Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it'. In the New Testament Gospel of John 15:1 Jesus states, "I am the true vine".

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Hence it was that, the concept of the Grail (Gra-al) bloodline was romantically symbolized as the Vessel (female) and the Vine (male). The fruit of the vine is the grape - and from the grape comes wine. In this respect, the symbolic elements of the chalice and the vine coincide, and this tradition sits at the very heart of the Eucharist (Holy Communion) sacrament.

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From Mesopotamian and Israelite foundations the Grail customs moved westwards into both Pagan and Christian lore, but notwithstanding this it is interesting to note that following the latter-day reinstatement of the State of Israel in 1948, these old emblems of the Royal House of Judah - the dynasty of David and Solomon - were brought back into play on newly introduced coins that replicated their originals in times long before.

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Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.