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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 151 of 176 (814039)
07-03-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Tangle
07-03-2017 1:05 PM


On the other hand, had we lived in a world where more people accepted God into their lives, then perhaps we wouldn't have these societies that cause these problems.

And no, polls on how many people claim membership to a religious group do not reflect how many people have God in their lives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 1:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 152 of 176 (814042)
07-03-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 2:56 PM


NCE writes:

On the other hand, had we lived in a world where more people accepted God into their lives, then perhaps we wouldn't have these societies that cause these problems.

Unfortunately that's the world we came from and it didn't work out very well did it?

And no, polls on how many people claim membership to a religious group do not reflect how many people have God in their lives.

Don't know where this came from. Who cares about polls, we know what's happening to religious belief across the Western world - it's declining quickly. The USA is an absurd outlier, but even there it's on the way out.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 6:03 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 153 of 176 (814044)
07-03-2017 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
07-03-2017 3:56 PM


How Free Are We?
tangle writes:

we know what's happening to religious belief across the Western world - it's declining quickly. The USA is an absurd outlier, but even there it's on the way out.

You seem to love this statistic but it is not entirely conclusive. Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!

Believers will not dissappear quite as fast as you think (and perhaps hope) unless the doctrine of the Rapture is proven correct.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 5:09 PM Phat has responded
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 6:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 11:55 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 154 of 176 (814046)
07-03-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:45 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
Phat writes:

You seem to love this statistic but it is not entirely conclusive.

It's entirely conclusive as it shows a long term decline in religiosity in developed countries. What else is there?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...ining-secula_b_9889398.html

Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!

What is it with you guys - you actually hope for these things....?

Believers will not dissappear quite as fast as you think (and perhaps hope)

It can't disapear as fast as I'd hope - that would be tomorrow - but it's declining at a steady rate like it or not.

unless the doctrine of the Rapture is proven correct.

'The end of the world is nigh' has been chanted by the mindless for centuries - it's not, regardless of how much you'd like it.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:20 AM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 155 of 176 (814047)
07-03-2017 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
07-03-2017 3:56 PM



Unfortunately that's the world we came from and it didn't work out very well did it?

I don't know if those people accepted God into their lives, regardless of if they were members of a religious group or not.

I've been a member of a religious group my whole life, but I've only recently embraced God.

Don't know where this came from. Who cares about polls, we know what's happening to religious belief across the Western world - it's declining quickly.

You care about polls, that's what you're using as evidence of religion's declines.

The USA is an absurd outlier, but even there it's on the way out.

People are certainly not claiming membership to as many groups these days, but that's got its own problems in its own right. Turns out social media doesn't really cut it as being social. Going to church once a week is being an active member of a community, and there's a lot of benefit to that even if its all bullshit. Any community can work, but it does take communion. That may be worth considering as a unintented consequence of your dream of wiping out religion - that people will loose one of their sources of community.

But I'm not really arguing for being the member of a group.

quote:
But my thesis is that the sooner we come to terms with facts and start looking to ourselves for answers the more healthy we'll become.

For me, I had to look past my self. Or maybe through myself. I'm convinced there's more in there than just me. I don't really know where it came from, but I was provided with the knowledge of what I had to do, and that gave me the strength to find the will to do it. And I'm getting it done.

I call it God, but I get that you don't like that word. I'm just saying that we should look for more than just ourselves for answers because it worked for me. Keep at terms with the facts, just don't stop at the self. Go further.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 5:17 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 156 of 176 (814048)
07-03-2017 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:45 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
You seem to love this statistic but it is not entirely conclusive. Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!
Believers will not dissappear quite as fast as you think (and perhaps hope) unless the doctrine of the Rapture is proven correct.

I think part of my miscommunication with Tangle is from using the word "religion" loosely.

Like, there's organized religion - the membership groups.
Then there's your own personal belief system - your religion.

You can use polls to measure participation in organized religion. But you really can't measure people practicing their religions.

As long as weird shit is happening to people, and they're coming to each other to relate about it, there's going to be religion. People are going to believe stuff they can't know, and when they work together they'll deduce things that can form the basis of a belief system. It develops quite naturally. Getting rid of that is a naive and short-sighted goal.

On top of the wave of atheism that is crossing the cultures, what seems to be happening is that people are getting less organized into communities, in general. You just go online into the one big community (which ends up offering no real communion at all). That'll certainly drive down participation in the membership groups, but I suppose a lot more people could just not be allowing God into their lives any more.

Either way, I think there's some loss to be had from it. If they need it, people will start to notice what they're missing. They'll find it, and then they'll eventually start organizing again. And if not, then so be it.

Our will is free enough to make that a choice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 157 of 176 (814072)
07-04-2017 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by New Cat's Eye
07-03-2017 6:03 PM


Re:
NCE writes:

I've been a member of a religious group my whole life, but I've only recently embraced God.

It sounds like you do have a bad infection.

People are certainly not claiming membership to as many groups these days, but that's got its own problems in its own right. Turns out social media doesn't really cut it as being social. Going to church once a week is being an active member of a community, and there's a lot of benefit to that even if its all bullshit. Any community can work, but it does take communion. That may be worth considering as a unintented consequence of your dream of wiping out religion - that people will loose one of their sources of community.

Religion is wiping itself out. It's been exposed to the light. As I've pointed out several times now, societies get on just fine without religous communities - in fact better.

For me, I had to look past my self. Or maybe through myself. I'm convinced there's more in there than just me. I don't really know where it came from, but I was provided with the knowledge of what I had to do, and that gave me the strength to find the will to do it. And I'm getting it done.

I call it God, but I get that you don't like that word. I'm just saying that we should look for more than just ourselves for answers because it worked for me. Keep at terms with the facts, just don't stop at the self. Go further.

I know you're being sincere but to me that's a classic delusion. I don't want or need anything more than what's to be found here. I'm perfectly happy the way I am. I'm not seeking something to make my life seem more meaningful, everything is just fine thanks.

Of course everything can be improved, but it's down to us to sort out our own problems not depend on some imaginary being that can give us a happy time when dead.just wishful thinking.

And those church services - sheesh, if you ever needed evidence of what a pile of garbage belief is, just attend a few with 'new eyes' and ears.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 6:03 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-04-2017 8:42 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 159 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-04-2017 8:49 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 158 of 176 (814080)
07-04-2017 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tangle
07-04-2017 5:17 AM


It sounds like you do have a bad infection.

Turns out it's a good infection.

Religion is wiping itself out. It's been exposed to the light.

What exactly do you mean by "Religion"?

From my previous post, Message 156:

quote:
I think part of my miscommunication with Tangle is from using the word "religion" loosely.

Like, there's organized religion - the membership groups.
Then there's your own personal belief system - your religion.

You can use polls to measure participation in organized religion. But you really can't measure people practicing their religions.

As long as weird shit is happening to people, and they're coming to each other to relate about it, there's going to be religion. People are going to believe stuff they can't know, and when they work together they'll deduce things that can form the basis of a belief system. It develops quite naturally. Getting rid of that is a naive and short-sighted goal.


I don't think that "religion" is a thing that can really get wiped out - 'cause people are gonna do what they're gonna do. Organized religions, though, may dwindle into obscurity, I don't doubt that.

I know you're being sincere but to me that's a classic delusion.

Sure, that's the easiest position to take.

I don't want or need anything more than what's to be found here.

Understood.

I'm perfectly happy the way I am.

Really, perfectly? That sounds neat

I'm not seeking something to make my life seem more meaningful, everything is just fine thanks.

Well you're welcome I guess, but you did reply to me.

It's real easy to deal with shit that you just assume isn't real, but delusion or not, I've been convinced that it is and everything has gotten a lot better since.

As long as we have free will, *cough* topic *cough*, and people keep having spiritual experiences, there's going to be religious beliefs around. I don't see that getting wiped out - even if people just stop admitting it in polls, and everyone claims devout atheism.

Of course everything can be improved, but it's down to us to sort out our own problems not depend on some imaginary being that can give us a happy time when dead.just wishful thinking.

When I'm dead hasn't really crossed my mind yet. I'm much more concerned with the here and now.

And those church services - sheesh, if you ever needed evidence of what a pile of garbage belief is, just attend a few with 'new eyes' and ears.

People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 5:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 9:03 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 159 of 176 (814082)
07-04-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Tangle
07-04-2017 5:17 AM


As I've pointed out several times now, societies get on just fine without religous communities

For how long? Do they end up turning back?

in fact better.

Where "better" is measured by:

quote:
life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality

Right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 5:17 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 160 of 176 (814083)
07-04-2017 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by New Cat's Eye
07-04-2017 8:42 AM


NCE writes:

What exactly do you mean by "Religion"?

When people start challenging well known words it usually means they've got an axe to grind about them and prefer to use a definition they've just made up.

Seems that's you. You have discovered a 'personal' religion. That is you now think you have a personal relationship with the god of your choosing and are pushing away from standard definitions. This is pretty classical. Soon you'll beasking others to join you in your living room and starting a spin off group.

I don't think that "religion" is a thing that can really get wiped out

Neither do I. It'll just fade away naturally.

As long as we have free will, *cough* topic *cough*, and people keep having spiritual experiences, there's going to be religious beliefs around. I don't see that getting wiped out - even if people just stop admitting it in polls, and everyone claims devout atheism.

Sure, mental illness will carry on, hopefully lessened by more grown up societies.

When societies become atheistic, they don't go around being 'devout' about it anymore than they're devout about there being no pixies around. It's just not thought of or discussed - it's a non-issue. Everytime I visit the USA I'm staggered by how in your face religious belief is, I was asked just as a matter normal conversation which church I attended. That's utterly unheard of here. It's only on these boards that religion ever enters my mind. (Apart from the deaths and marriages of barely religiously minded friends.)

People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.

That's not just wrong, it's also silly.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-04-2017 8:42 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 161 of 176 (814096)
07-04-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
07-03-2017 5:09 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
tangle, replying to NCE writes:

You have discovered a 'personal' religion. That is you now think you have a personal relationship with the god of your choosing and are pushing away from standard definitions. This is pretty classical. Soon you'll beasking others to join you in your living room and starting a spin off group.

I agree with NCE that its all about community. You prefer a community without churches.

tangle writes:

It'll just fade away naturally.

Here I disagree with you. As NCE asserts, organized religion may continue to fade away but personal belief will keep it alive.

NCE writes:

People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.

Tangle writes:

That's not just wrong, it's also silly.

Only because you are astounded by how many nutters come out of the woodwork. And yet people still paint themselves orange and wear a barrel to a "silly" football game. People still have groups to honor numerous ridiculous causes...such as a Star Trek group, an Elvis group, or a UFO group. As NCE states...its not the belief its the community.

Maybe we should have a Tangle group. Members meet and pat themselves on the back for being rational!

Phat writes:

Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!


Tangle writes:

What is it with you guys - you actually hope for these things....?

I certainly don't. I am as much of a materialist as any of you.

I certainly would not take away anyone's freedom to believe anything or start a group for any reason.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 11:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5157
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 162 of 176 (814099)
07-04-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
07-04-2017 11:20 AM


Re: How Free Are We?
Phat writes:

Here I disagree with you. As NCE asserts, organized religion may continue to fade away but personal belief will keep it alive.

Without priests and churches and schools teaching and reinforcing the mythology it dies a natuaral death.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that personal beliefs will supplant organised beliefs but it's certainly not the case in reality. When people drop religion they drop god. That's why the West is becoming atheist - they're not turning to a personal god, they're turning away from god.

I agree with NCE that its all about community.

it isn't, it's about god. Without god, those churches don't exist but communities do. You don't need gods for communities.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 163 of 176 (814100)
07-04-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:45 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
Phat writes:

Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!


That's an empty prediction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 1:50 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 164 of 176 (814141)
07-05-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
07-04-2017 11:55 AM


Re: How Free Are We?
What do you mean by "empty"?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 11:55 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-05-2017 3:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 165 of 176 (814236)
07-05-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Tangle
07-04-2017 9:03 AM


When people start challenging well known words it usually means they've got an axe to grind about them and prefer to use a definition they've just made up.

No, this is you copping out. Well known words can have multiple meanings and we're apparently using different ones and talking passed each other.

You have discovered a 'personal' religion. That is you now think you have a personal relationship with the god of your choosing and are pushing away from standard definitions.

I have a set of personal experiences and beliefs, just like everyone else. The word "religion" can be used to describe that set and that is how I have been using the word. It can also be used to describe the major religious organizations, which I am not particularly talking about.

I don't think that "religion" is a thing that can really get wiped out

Neither do I. It'll just fade away naturally.

I disagree. As I said, as long as weird shit is happening to people and they're relating to each other about it, there is going to be a thing called religion. I don't see that stopping.

Sure, mental illness will carry on, hopefully lessened by more grown up societies.

You can call it mental illness if you want to, but it's still religion. So is it going to carry on or is it going to fade away?

People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.

That's not just wrong, it's also silly.

You're clueless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 9:03 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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