Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-22-2017 11:52 PM
360 online now:
Coyote, dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Percy (Admin) (4 members, 356 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,310 Year: 23,916/21,208 Month: 1,881/2,468 Week: 390/822 Day: 50/66 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
12Next
Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 91 of 176 (812118)
06-14-2017 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
06-14-2017 5:09 PM


Off hand I can't think of any knowledge that came from religion, can you?

If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith...

Ignominious and wrong

Hubris


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2017 3:51 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 176 (812123)
06-14-2017 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
06-14-2017 5:09 PM


The Reformation let loose an explosion of knowledge that had been suppressed by the previous thousand years of Romanist superstition and oppression including the suppression of the Bible. In fact it was the release of the Bible from the obfuscating Latin into the languages of the common people that liberated the western world.

There was nevertheless some Christian influence before that, such as made the Magna Carta possible for intance. You may hate this: It was the early Christians who considered life so precious that they opposed abortion and rescued infants exposed to die. They founded orphanages and hospitals and promoted all kinds of charities to improve the lot of mankind. Christianity brought about all the civil rights movements, liberal politics, all that, AND it made true empirical science possible. It stimulated individuals to all kinds of inventiveness. Really, you should read something about history that isn't all revisionist secularism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2017 3:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 93 of 176 (812141)
06-15-2017 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
06-14-2017 10:48 PM


Faith writes:

The Reformation let loose an explosion of knowledge that had been suppressed by the previous thousand years of Romanist superstition and oppression including the suppression of the Bible.

Well I'm not going to disagree that religion restriced the growth of knowledge prior to the reformation but I'm also not going to agree that a different flavour of the same religion released it. You are a perfect example of how that belief prevents the progress of knowledge - you and your 'reformed' religion forces you to deny almost all branches of modern science. If your lot we're in charge, we'd be back in the dark ages. Your reformed religion is campaigning against knowledge gain still.

In fact it was the release of the Bible from the obfuscating Latin into the languages of the common people that liberated the western world.

It certainly stopped the rot by letting the people hear and understand the gibberish they were actually chanting in their churches. I can't believe that that was a result they expected.

So yes, the breakdown of religious dogma and populous control by religions provided a catalyst but it was the Enlightenment and the prior invention of scientific method that started the unstoppable knowledge gain.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 94 of 176 (812142)
06-15-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 10:41 PM


NCE writes:

If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith...

Pretty useless then, the best we can hope for religion then is that it doesn't get in the way of human progress like it did in the past.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 10:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 10:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 95 of 176 (812184)
06-15-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
06-15-2017 3:51 AM


NCE writes:

If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith...

Pretty useless then,

For me, religion has been quite useful. My highly analytical and scientific mind utterly failed to meet my emotional needs. It was only after embracing my religion and seeking God's help that I was able to improve my mental health.

Finding God showed me the way to finding my self. Finding my self showed me my desires. Having the free will to fulfill those desires allows me the ability to provide my self with pleasure (non-sexual).

And that is the key to happiness

I'm not saying it's the only way, but it certainly worked for me - and that's not useless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2017 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 11:44 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2017 2:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 96 of 176 (812195)
06-15-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
06-15-2017 10:46 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Finding God showed me the way to finding my self.


So your self was what you needed all along. "God" was just a means to that end. You might as well say, "Rock climbing showed me the way to finding myself," or, "Marriage showed me the way to finding myself," or, "LSD showed me the way to finding myself."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 12:07 PM ringo has responded
 Message 99 by Stile, posted 06-15-2017 12:26 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 97 of 176 (812200)
06-15-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
06-15-2017 11:44 AM


You might as well say, "Rock climbing showed me the way to finding myself," or, "Marriage showed me the way to finding myself," or, "LSD showed me the way to finding myself."

But they didn't...

So your self was what you needed all along. "God" was just a means to that end.

Surely. I couldn't find my self, but after I found God I was shown where my self was.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 98 of 176 (812201)
06-15-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by New Cat's Eye
06-15-2017 12:07 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

But they didn't...


Maybe you needed more than one marriage.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 12:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 99 of 176 (812205)
06-15-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
06-15-2017 11:44 AM


ringo writes:

So your self was what you needed all along. "God" was just a means to that end. You might as well say, "Rock climbing showed me the way to finding myself," or, "Marriage showed me the way to finding myself," or, "LSD showed me the way to finding myself."

God/religion is a very good (and proven over time) method to help people 'find themselves.'
It doesn't work for everyone, but it certainly does work (and sometimes very well) for a great number of people.

Yes, it certainly has been shown to also have the possibility for a lot of issues and abuse and excuses for bad behavior.
But... so does marriage, LSD and even rock climbing.

For some people, it can be absolutely impossible for them to 'find themselves' using any other means except for God.
The same way that, for some people, such a thing MUST be done without religion of any kind.

People are different, and different methods are going to be required in order to reach the same goal ("happiness").


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:31 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 100 of 176 (812207)
06-15-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Stile
06-15-2017 12:26 PM


Stile writes:

People are different, and different methods are going to be required in order to reach the same goal ("happiness").


Some people say that the journey is more important than the destination. Sometimes the route passes through Fantasy Land.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Stile, posted 06-15-2017 12:26 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 101 of 176 (812210)
06-15-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
06-15-2017 12:09 PM


I've never been married.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 102 of 176 (812213)
06-15-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by New Cat's Eye
06-15-2017 12:41 PM


New cat's Eye writes:

I've never been married.


I didn't think you had - but you said that my examples didn't work for you. Maybe marriage would have a similar effect as religion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 12:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 1:19 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 103 of 176 (812219)
06-15-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
06-15-2017 12:48 PM


Maybe marriage would have a similar effect as religion.

I was practically married. I lived with the same woman in a committed monogamous relationship for over 11 years. It actually made me worse. But that's over now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 12:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 1:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 104 of 176 (812221)
06-15-2017 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
06-15-2017 1:19 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

I was practically married.


Then, as I said, maybe you needed more than one "practical" marriage. What you have is one data point. I'm just suggesting that there may be others.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 1:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 1:29 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 105 of 176 (812224)
06-15-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
06-15-2017 1:23 PM


Then, as I said, maybe you needed more than one "practical" marriage.

Workin' on it...

What you have is one data point. I'm just suggesting that there may be others.

Well duh - you don't ever stop looking for data.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 06-15-2017 1:23 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
12Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017