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Author | Topic: Internet Porn | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
custard Inactive Member |
I saw this article in the la times and thought it was relevant to the discussion:
quote: I agree that the parent has the responsibility to take measures to restrict images and material he/she does not want his child to see. This message has been edited by custard, 06-29-2004 03:44 PM
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
The SC decision is good but does not actually decide the matter.
I think most people have no idea what government restrictions are out there on communication, in the name of protecting children. Technically, at least this was the case under COPA and its predecessor, just sharing photos of you and your girlfriend having sex on a yahoo group would make you a production company that then forced you into ridiculous amounts of recordkeeping duties. Indeed, according to the letter of the law, with those photos you'd have to include a real street address and your full name so anyone can find you. This was brought up as in issue with some girls that ran webcam services from home. They certainly did NOT want to have to put there address and real name right on the web so someone could drop by (oh yeah even if you webcam yourself, that would count). When a lawyer I had a while back talked to one of the head FBI guys about this issue (remember this is the FBI), the said "what do we care what happens to them?" And there was no sense to the laws. You could have a video of a geriatric gangbang and if one person did not have proper ID and full historical background documentation on file, it would technically be CHILDPORN. That is you would receive the same problems as if that 70 yeard old was 7. They also had it written so that if you put text on the cover (of an obvious geriatric gangbang) that it was a bunch of preteens, it would be childporn. Simply no sense of reality. This latest version of COPA added the dimension that anyone wanting to show sexual imagery on the net would have to be a business anyway. You'd be forced to create or join a creditcard service and charge people. I guess that was really going to help antiporn enthusiasts as then they could actually claim "see, no one makes sexual imagery except for the money." There is currently no concept in the law that people are making and sharing sexual imagery for free, for fun. Its like that Queen that had no clue there were lesbians. And there is also no understanding that independents have grown up which blur the line of for fun and for profit. Ironically this is what has been stepping on the necks of anyone trying to fight purely fictional porn, as Contracycle had said would make porn more legitimate. The "porn is bad" attitude and legislation hinders actual solutions to what people consider bad in that industry. I hope COPA goes down for good, or hope that I never have to return to the US. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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apple Inactive Member |
quote: Who do you feel should own all the property? The State? Should the State own all the property they would have the right to tell you what you could do on their property. One would be less free.
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apple Inactive Member |
quote: I don't feel boys are less equipped to deal with the emotional aspects of relationship sex. It is more a matter of simply not feeling required to do so. Sex, being a natural drive, needs to be satisfied one way or another. Why all the unnecessary relationships and emotional baggage to accompany it? Porn is treating sex as any other activity, the way it should be. Imagine if having dinner with someone or playing golf or going shopping required two people to form a binding relationship? This is where porn is correcting a misconception that many in society hold. Sex is a natural activity for humans. We must remove the obstacles, the expected ceremony, the false mystique surrounding it.
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apple Inactive Member |
quote: I never stated that. Those were the words of another poster. Probably there are things a porn actor will do that he/she does not like. So what? There are probably things you do at work that you don't like. It is a job. There are people whom watch porn that like what the actor does and that's the whole point of making a film.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I didn't say "all", now did I? You wouldn't be responding to arguments I haven't made again, would you?
quote: I didn't say "all", now did I? You wouldn't be responding to arguments I haven't made again, would you?
quote: I wasn't talking about all men. You wouldn't be responding to arguments I haven't made again, would you?
quote: I never said "only", now did I? You wouldn't be responding to arguments I haven't made again, would you? Let me remind you of what you seem to have forgotten that I wrote:
By no means do I think this is the majority of men and boys, I actually generally get along with men very well, and most of my best friends have been men. Now, I would definitely be using a sexist stereotype if I were to paint ALL men with the same brush, but I'm not, am I?
quote: I agree that people may be using strippers, porn, and prostitutes for the basic, simple reason you state; to get turned on. But I doubt very much that all people who use these things are all using these things for only that reason. I do not believe that human motivations are generally that simplistic.
quote: Many people go to a restaurant to enjoy the food, yes, but they might also enjoy showing off to their companions how much they know about wine, or feel important and wealthy when they pick up the check. Sure, someone might like the comedy stylings of a comedian, but they might also be going to that comedy club to feel more a part of the hip, happenin' night scene in their city. They might go to a scientist's lecture to have some thoughts provoked, but they also might be going because this scientist's ideas feeds their political agenda or religious agenda. Just as people might use prostitutes, strippers and porn simply for sexual arousal, they might also be going there because they are angry at their spouse, or their boss just demoted them, or somebody threatened their manhood and they need to feel manly and important again. People are complicated.
quote: Actually, I think it is you that can't understand many human motivations. I think you state things too simplistically at times.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I've been to one, and it is not self-evident. I'd like to know what you think men can get at a strip club (other than fake tits, maybe) that they can't get at home.
quote: If I go to one, that will be an example of ONE club.
quote: Many, many men have varrying levels of difficulty with intimacy. (So do many women, but I think, as a group, women are less uncomfortable with emotional closeness) Some men find intimacy extremely difficult and discomforting.
quote: No. It is a matter of degree.
quote: I suppose I am talking about the kind of relationship where one shares their hopes and fears, cares about the happiness of the other, loves and is loved in return, makes a connection at a deep level, not guarded.
quote: Some of them are not, no. Lack of intimacy is one of the biggest complaints women have of their men when in long term relationships. Little personal connection. I think it is slowly changing, but it wasn't that long ago that a married woman got her emotional support from her circle of girlfriends, not from her husband. She just didn't get that from him. A man got his emotional support from his wife, because he didn't have close, intimate relartionships with other men. You just didn't have conversations about your fears with other men; it showed you were weak and was humiliating. That's why men tended to suffer much more emotionally after a wife dies or they got divorced. She had her circle of girlfriends to help her through it in the case of divorce, but the man's only intimate support was his wife. My father had a pretty large group of drinking buddies that he saw every week, but do you think a single one of them came to see him in the hospital when he got his bypass operation?
quote: I think most men are capable of intimacy, of course. Many men, however, do not develop this capability to their full potential. They often don't have to, or sometimes they want to but don't know how. Also, people vary. My parents have been married for close to fifty years, and I have never remembered a time when they haven't pretty much despised each other. They are bitter, bitter people.
quote: Nothing specific, like a source, but this is stuff that I have learned from reading over the years. I can try to look some things up if you like.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It's emotional parts of the relationship outside of sex that I am talking about. Lack of intimacy is one of women's biggest complaints about their husbands.
quote: Yeah. No kidding.
quote: I'll bet you wouldn't be saying this if birth control wasn't freely available. Children are the "natural" consequence of all of this free and easy sex you advocate; are you prepared to support all of the offspring produced?
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Your claim was that porn actors wouldn't do something in a porn movie unless they liked it, but that's not true. quote: No, it was my restatement of what you wrote in post #158 of this thread: "As for degrading women through porn it is a subjective thing. There is nothing degrading if the woman likes what is happening."
quote: So, it contradicts what you said, which is that "there is nothing degrading if the woman likes what is happening." You cannot know if the woman likes what is happening to her in the film, so how can you say she doesn't feel degraded but is just acting like she likes it for the money?
quote: Right, but this also contradicts your statement.
quote: But you said that there is nothing degrading about what happens to a woman if she likes it, but since people will do things they don't like for money and act like they like it, you have no way of knowing if she feels degraded or not.
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custard Inactive Member |
Nothing specific, like a source, but this is stuff that I have learned from reading over the years. I can try to look some things up if you like. Schraf, when you make a claims like quote: AND
quote: I think you do need to provide specific evidence to support these claims. If you don't, it really does appear that you are making claims based on conjecture and your own, singular, possibly unique, experiences which are not necessarily applicable to people outside of your immediate circle. You make a point of telling holmes that you are not referring to ALL men, but when you refer to 'many, many' men, that sounds like 'most men' to my ears - which in turn sounds like a sweeping generalization of men. This also demands proof. When you hedge with quote:this only undermines your claim since I can make the same claim about women. I could also claim that some men kill their wives, does that support the claim that 'many, many men don't like women?' Finally, you are shifting your claim from 'men don't like women' to 'men have difficulty with intimacy.' Is it both? Or are you dropping the 'men don't like women' claim.
I suppose I am talking about the kind of relationship where one shares their hopes and fears, cares about the happiness of the other, loves and is loved in return, makes a connection at a deep level, not guarded. And I submit that men do this. If they didn't do this, they wouldn't be able to be in lasting relationships - e.g. cohabitation and marriage. I don't deny that there are disfunctional relationships, but not necessarily because the men involved don't do what you have described. You really need to show your evidence that 'many, many men' do not do what you have desribed - share hopes and fears, make a connection at a deep level (wouldn't that be love by the way?), and loves and is loved in return. I know I do this. My experience is that EVERY man I know involved in a long-term relationship (with men or women) does this. So when you make the claim that many, many men don't do this, or have problems doing this, or, most appalling of all, don't like women except for sex - I find that ignorant and biased. Certainly as ignorant and biased as statements like "all evolutionists are athiests" or "all women are self-absorbed and have love me daddy issues." This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 03:34 AM
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
I didn't say "all", now did I? You wouldn't be responding to arguments I haven't made again, would you? First of all you will notice that if you read my arguments properly, this is not what I said you said. In the first two examples you addressed one was about if I had had an experience, the second was if someone else had had an experience that led to a feeling that a stereotype was true. It did not matter if they had more or less experiences than you did to come to that conclusion. The conclusion was the important part and it IS similar. Me: "led me to feel most women were shrewy, shallow, manipulative, vain bitches" You: "lead me to believe that many males are bewildered, frightened, and threatened by females." You may wish to try and qualify that your "many" is not the same as my "most", and quote your statement that you do not believe it is the "majority". But I find it curious what you left out.
Very few of the rest of the perrfectly nice men or boys I have known has ever broken away from the crowd to protest any of this misogynistic behavior. They have participated in it less, but almost never spoke up against it. Here you have added to the "many", that the out of the remaining boys "very few" have avoided this same behavior. Especially note that last sentence. The rest "participated in it less", which means they still did to some extent. Now I'm not going to argue about what you REALLY MEANT to say. Whatever you say you wanted to say is just fine. But I will say that there appears to be statements that add up to "most" men, including statements like the following...
I wonder if it is also true that boys use these things because they are, as a result of our culture, emotionally repressed WRT interpersonal relationships, and therefore are uncomfortable with real intimacy and real relationships. Was that some or most or all or what? Since MOST BOYS USE PORN this tends to implicate MOST BOYS.
I agree that people may be using strippers, porn, and prostitutes for the basic, simple reason you state; to get turned on... But I doubt very much that all people who use these things are all using these things for only that reason. I do not believe that human motivations are generally that simplistic. I'm sorry do you want me to requote your posts saying that boys have issues with emotions and generally just pursue relationships for sex, and that they use those things above to get to the sex without having to invest anything more? Please don't start reversing yourself.
Just as people might use prostitutes, strippers and porn simply for sexual arousal, they might also be going there because they are angry at their spouse, or their boss just demoted them, or somebody threatened their manhood and they need to feel manly and important again. Absolutely. I didn't say "all" people only went there for sex did I? You wouldn't be responding to an argument I haven't made again, would you? Your claims centered on use of those sources to get sex directly without having to have any deeper relationships with those they are getting sexual stimulation from. You also spun arguments from this that if boys liked girls as PEOPLE, they wouldn't use those sources. If I got those points wrong then I am sorry, could you please make your argument more clear? But my own argument centered on the idea that there had to be a respect for some personal characteristic other than sexual, in order to respect or like them as a person. I was trying to pound home that sexuality is a genuine characteristic which can be appreciated without greater emotional involvement. I could have gone deeper, but my posts are long as it is and this is the ONLY POINT I NEEDED TO MAKE. What I think is telling is that you used positive motives for reasons to go to all the other places (that are nonsexual), but when it came to sexual places the guys had all these negative reasons. I will not deny that guys might have some of those negative reasons when they go to sexual sources for gratification, so what? Does that make it less legitimate? You know some people go to comedy clubs to HECKLE, as well as restaurants to HARASS waiters and waitresses (or just lord it over the staff by whipping out lots of money). I don't think that's cool but it doesn't demean the business, just those people who use it for that purpose.
Actually, I think it is you that can't understand many human motivations. I think you state things too simplistically at times. I think your assessment of males is too simplistic. Your charges make their use of sex outside of relationships as ways to dodge emotional commitment, which they are uncomfortable with. I can't think of a more cardboard cutout theory regarding use of porn, strippers, etc etc. Do you want me to expand on my description of why and how people use sex for pleasure? I could do this. I thought all I needed to do was shoot down your simple assessment that if boys really liked girls they wouldn't enjoy sexual outlets outside of a relationship. Your negative, and shallow assessment of men continues to make me feel very sorry for you. It always will. And it doesn't matter if you say "all" or not. Your overall impression is not a good one. Or at least you need to make your language much less hyperbolic if you want to begin to sound boy-positive. As far as I can tell, its snips and snails and puppy dog tails for boys, and sugar and spice and everything nice for girls... even if those boys (usually gay) are your friends. This message has been edited by holmes, 06-30-2004 05:08 PM holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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custard Inactive Member |
A man got his emotional support from his wife, because he didn't have close, intimate relartionships with other men. You just didn't have conversations about your fears with other men; it showed you were weak and was humiliating. I wasn't aware you used to be a man at one time. How else would you know this? What, exactly, do you think men talk about with other men - ESPECIALLY when we are young and our closest friends are (SURPISE!) other young men? Do you think we just talk about guns, sports, and the chicks we want to bang? That's as assinine as assuming all women do when they get together is gossip. Don't you think? You didn't answer my question: quote: Please give me a percentage - your own estimate is fine. "Many, many" is too ambiguous to work with.
That's why men tended to suffer much more emotionally after a wife dies or they got divorced. Do you have any evidence for this besides personal experience?
My father had a pretty large group of drinking buddies that he saw every week, but do you think a single one of them came to see him in the hospital when he got his bypass operation? So that grants you the right to paint men as a group with a broad brush? I submit your fathers 'buddies' were simply that, buddies. There are friends, and there are friends. Unfortunately most people don't find out what their friends are really made of until they need them most.
I think most men are capable of intimacy, of course. Many men, however, do not develop this capability to their full potential. They often don't have to, or sometimes they want to but don't know how. Many? Or many, many? See how the percentage would help out here? I don't know if you mean 'alot many,' or a 'majority of many,' or what. So makes you think you know what the 'full potential' of men's intimacy is? Additionally:1-What makes you think have the majority of the intimacy problems? 2-Don't women have problems relating to men? 3-If a man isn't as intimate with a woman as she'd like, why do you claim the man has the intimacy issues? What evidence makes you think it is the man's problem? No more anecdotes please, you know better than to think those are applicable to large populations. This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 03:41 AM
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Enough with the abuse; can you point me to where these claims are rubtted or not?
quote: Many such rights were only granted a few decades ago; this ovbservation is over too short a period to be meaningful IMO. But secondly, that only addresses criminal acts; any misogtyby not seen as criminal would not be detected.
quote: actually, I asked a genuine question. Now I see what data you meant, I can respond specifically.
quote: You're ignoring a salient point - the MARKET for these slave-traded girls was indeed WESTERN men. Men who are supposedly signed up to the equality of women and things like inaleinable human rights to life and liberty. But in fact what they did was de facto collude with the traffickers. Now if Western men can and will collude with slave traffickers, why should I not think theres a lot of blind eye going on domestically?
quote: Huh? Its already illegal to broadcast racist propaganda in most Western states, so the answer is "yes obviously".
quote: Well thats because you generalise it yourself as if any objection necessarily emanated from Mary Whitehouse. At no point have I ever stated that all of porn was corecive and yet you have attacked me AS IF I said that.
quote: Clearly not - the salient point about them is their poverty.
quote: and hereyou misrepresent my argument again. I have expWhat makes this really laughable is that it can only be made in a society where such "tropes" existed. You know there are people outside of western countries which also end up dating exclusively outside of their race?[/quote] I do, but as you also know, this is wholly immaterial to my argument.
quote: Actually, I specifically said that I was addressing one trope that existed as a subset of all interracial porn. But don't start addressing my ACTUAL argument now, whatever you do!
quote: ... as I said. In fact, I that was more or less THE POINT.
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: False comparison; I said I have "been privy to conversations between men which do degrade women", and you have turned this into "gossip about the men in the office". Gossip <> Degradation I said what I meant, I meant what I said; I did not say "gossip" and I did not mean "gossip".
quote: This is neither surprising nor relevant nor new. We only FIND it suprising because of the fictiotious "demure female" archetype.
quote: Resorting purely to textual criticism isn't going to help. But its is exactly this sort of apologetic that perpetuates the stereotyping; most guys don't even accept there is a problem and carry on. Whuch is exactly why dealing with the problem usually requires recourse to the law.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
I'd like to know what you think men can get at a strip club (other than fake tits, maybe) that they can't get at home. Variety. They call it the spice of life. Check it out. If the qualifier for leaving home for any reason had to be what one can't get at home, one would only go to work and go shopping. And even those wouldn't really be necessary for many given the computer age. Your line is arbitrary.
If I go to one, that will be an example of ONE club. Can that be WORSE than the apparently numerous clubs you have visited only in FANTASY? Well I suppose it could if your inclination is to try and find the sleaziest dive you can, and then paint everything with that. See at least five clubs. Try and make them at varying types of clubs (even some sleazy ones). Maybe you can include lesbian strip clubs (oops lesbians have... strip clubs?) as well as one for straight women (men strip for women? gasp). You might be surprised when at the latter two the focus of the attention is not on the model reading a book.
Many, many men have varrying levels of difficulty with intimacy. (So do many women, but I think, as a group, women are less uncomfortable with emotional closeness) Not all, not most, just many many men. How many is that? I think you think what you do about women because you are a woman and have never felt the emotions that men have and deal with. If you want an admission that this culture isn't high on men showing their feelings in PUBLIC, then you have that. But that is different than not understanding or feeling emotionally close. Perhaps the men you have encountered with this problem have had their hearts ripped out previously by a total bitch?
Some of them are not, no. I too would like some back up on your amazing ability to judge that only SOME of the nearly 60% of men in relationships, can handle intimacy. I also wonder what this means statistically. There are more women that men. If there are only 60% of men in relationships then there are even less women in relationships. Maybe this shows that women have a problem with intimacy? Oh yeah, I forgot, if there isn't a relationship it's the guy's fault.
Lack of intimacy is one of the biggest complaints women have of their men when in long term relationships. Little personal connection. That's kind of funny because one of the biggest complaints that prostitutes hear is how their wives have a problem understanding them emotionally. It is also very common to hear men complaining that their wives were only after money or fame, and not interested in them personally (not even for the sex). That makes women even more inhuman than men. That is if I extrapolate what I hear during people's complaining as some truth regarding the opposite sex (even just many many).
You just didn't have conversations about your fears with other men; it showed you were weak and was humiliating. So you know Custard personally? Or was that You directed at men? How many? Many many? Read that statement a few times and maybe you will understand why I feel so sorry for you. It is condescending and sterotypical at the same time. I have conversations about my fears with men all the time. And I have had men tell me about there fears as well. Yeah it didn't look like a crying fest with hankies, but it wasn't a bunch of guys grunting and farting. Men can and do care about their male friends. Again, I feel very sorry for your cardboard cutout view of men.
My father had a pretty large group of drinking buddies that he saw every week, but do you think a single one of them came to see him in the hospital when he got his bypass operation? And if none of my mom's friends came to help her? Okay not my mom. But there were two neighbors whose female friends abandoned them when they got in physical trouble. I guess that makes my anecdote two to one on yours. Oh and guys did show up for some of my male relatives who fell ill. Now you have me feeling sorry for you and your dad. Are people in Michigan really this nasty to each other? Maybe you need to move to a new State.
Many men, however, do not develop this capability to their full potential. "I'm givin' er all she's got captain!" Perhaps you can send me the schematics you have on men so I can jerry-rig something and boost my output to its full potential. Can you tell me where you got this schematic from which details what full potential is?
My parents have been married for close to fifty years, and I have never remembered a time when they haven't pretty much despised each other. They are bitter, bitter people. Well I don't know about you but that sounds like two people having intimacy problems. Are you laying this mostly on your dad for some reason? Man, I really really feel sorry for you.
this is stuff that I have learned from reading over the years. I can try to look some things up if you like. Please do. But one caveat. Please do not use books from feminist authors, nor sold for a woman audience. Make it real research, academic. And please go visit some clubs, even if just the ones for lesbians and straight women. You might get a real education on what people get out of it, besides avoiding intimacy. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
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