One Word Got Me In Trouble.

The word "literalist" in the phrase "Biblical literalist based" was missunderstood and likely was not a good choice of words in my initial post about the Bible. It was latched onto and away we all went out in left field on national economics.Since Finland was the subject of the most controversy, some statements about it here and a couple of links to document:For some time beginning with the reformation most of the people of these nations in question were more Biblical literalist but secularism has changed that, especially in the last few decades.Though about 85% of Findlanders are Evangelical Lutheran church members and about 50% pray, only about 15% attend church at least once a month. Most are married in the church and most do attend on occasion.Though my choice of words was not the best, my position on the influence of the Bible on the nations of higer standards remains that the Biblical heritage most of these nations had from the time of the reformation was the major factor in their standard of living and has instilled in them at least a measure of the Biblical values in morality and society. The further we all go from these values, the worse off our planet will get. Time will tell if this assessment is correct. At least it seems to appear so in the US as or families fall apart, crime surges and morals tumble presenting all kinds of headache for all of us.

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Church statistics: (31.12.2001)
4 405 246 members
(84,8 % of the Finns)
about 20 000 employees and 200 000 volunteer workers
586 congregations
8 dioceses

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The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland - evl.fi

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The Evangelical-Lutheran Church
In 2000, the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Finland had more than 4.4 million members, that is 85% of the population, registered with a parish.

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The Evangelical-Lutheran Church comprises eight dioceses with nine bishops and almost 600 independent parishes. The average parish has 7,000 members, with the smallest parishes comprising only a few hundred members and the largest tens of thousands.

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The parish council is the supreme decision-making body in the parish. All members of the parish over the age of 18 have the right to vote in parish council elections.

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The supreme decision-making body for the entire church is the Synod, which determines the doctrines, policies and finances of the church. The synod meets twice a year. The dioceses are headed by a bishop and a diocesan chapter.

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The parishes obtain 78% of their income in the form of a church tax levied along with state and local taxation. The tax is paid mainly by individual parishioners. In addition, the Lutheran church (like the Orthodox church) receives a share of the corporate tax. In 2000, the parishes had income from taxes totalling 723 million euro. The state bears the cost of military and prison chaplains.

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The diverse activities of the Lutheran Church are reflected in the structure of its personnel. It is unlikely that there are many churches in the world where only one in ten employees is a parochial priest. In 2000, the church had 19,600 (full or part time) employees.

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The church best reaches its members through various church ceremonies and rites and every Finn attends an average of at least one church service every year. 89% of all infants are baptised and an even higher percentage (90%) of teenagers attend confirmation classes and are confirmed. Only about 2% of Finns are buried without a church service, and as many as 80% of couples are married in the Evangelical-Lutheran Church.

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Page not found - thisisFINLANDA note in defense of my decision to summarize and exit:We were off topic and when things got personal I didn't want to get into long unpleasant arguments about defending my mode of posting and all the repetitive comments opposing my statement about Finland and as to the OT/NT aspects of Biblical influence on Israel's economy. It was all overdone by my opponents who unfairly mushroomed it into a big, big deal that I was being hounded into defending in spite of the direction it was going.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-22-2003]

Isn't it arguable that it may be the protestant work ethic rather than simple morality that has raised the standard of living in these countries? Or do you feel this extends to all christian denominations?

Hi WK. The work ethic is one of the tenents of Christianity which is taught in both the OT and the NT. It is closely related with "you shall not steal", "you shall not covet your neighbor's goods", "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" and the NT admonishion to "owe no man anything" as well as a lot more throughout the OT and NT on this subject. That is not to say that it is exclusively Christian, but that it is just another of the Biblical principles that make life function smoothly and prosperously in those cultures where the Bible has been a major factor in the culture's heritage.The problem with socialism and especially socialistic communism is that when one cannot enjoy the personal fruits of their labor. Thus, many workers have no incentive to work and tend to do the least amount to get by. That a person should enjoy the fruits of their labor is another Biblical principle, btw.buz

So, no mortgages? No student loans? How do literalists pay for those expensive Bible colleges? Reference, please? I remember a bible that says "Render unto Caeser that which is Caesar's" and "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven." As well as a savior that took bread and fish from one man to distribute to a hungry crowd.

Hi again, WK. I believe your implication that this work ethic is practiced more in protestant cultures is true because the Bible was read and followed more by the laity in these cultures. It along with Watts hymnal were used extensively in public education in the early decades of America's heritage. Until recent history, the use and reading of the Bible in Catholic homes was not encouraged and during the dark ages forbidden if I'm not mistaken. Much of the masses were offered in a foreign language. Thus in Mexico, the bared doors and windows as well as the poverty and social problems in spite of all their natural resources.

Well, in the dark ages it wasn't so much forbidden, as much as it was they just didn't have the books to give out.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-23-2003]

It is acknowledged by most authorities that the Catholic church restricted access to the Bible by non-clergy during the middle ages. In many parts of Europe mere possession of a Bible by the laity was not permitted. The Catholic church preferred that the Bible be interpreted for the laity by the clergy, rather than having the laity possibly form independent interpretations from their owm readings. In particular, it was mostly not permitted to render much of the Bible into vulgar tongues, ie, non-Latin languages.The author of one of the early English translations was actually put to death for his efforts. I'm sorry I can't remember his name, though names that come to mind (possibly not accurately) are Wycliffe and Tynsdale. Perhaps someone else knows who it was.--Percy

Hi Percy,I believe it was Tyndale who was put to death for translating the Bible. Wycliffe translated from the Vulgate in the 1300s and Tyndale translated from the Greek in the 1500s. I think he was strangled and burned at the stake.http://www.tyndale.org/------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Platoedited to add link[This message has been edited by Asgara, 07-23-2003]

Buz, I don't think you will find much of an objection to a claim that the basic Christian teachings about ethics and morals aren't basically good for society.The problem comes when you insist that only Christians enjoy such moral codes, which is clearly false, and it is also a problem when you claim that the Christian nations profit most from following those codes or profit from following the Bible the most literally, which is also clearly shown to be false.It is also a problem that you are not taking into account the success of nations and cultures pre-Christianity.The Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, Chinese, Japanese, various African and Middle-eastern societies and nations were very successful long before or completely removed from Christianity.At the end of the day, you have to recon with the fact that, by a measure of standard of living/poverty rate, Finland, Sweden, and many other countries which have lower rates of religious attendance, lower numbers of citizens praying, etc. provide a better standard of living for the majority of it's citizens than the US.By a lot, too.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-23-2003]

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Well, in the dark ages it wasn't so much forbidden, as much as it was they just didn't have the books to give out.

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The copying and translating of it was forbidden. Otherwise there are many who would've copied it if they had a public copy to go from and were allowed to do so. Thus called the dark ages. A lot of other literature was forbidden also. The popes and bishops corrupted the authority of the state in most of Europe. Can you document that it wasn't forbidden to the laity?

No, not really... I don't think it's really an important point, anyway. I'd not heard that books were specifically forbidden to the laity. I guess I'm ignorant.I'm much more interested in why you think any Western country was founded on specifically biblical concepts. My reading of the bible doesn't support democracy or capitalism as particularly biblical values.And I'd apprectiate a response to message 4 where I pointed out an inconsistency between biblical literalism and the generally approved process of taking on monetary debt.[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-23-2003]

Schrafinator, how many times do I have to say it. SCANDINAVIA'S HERITAGE WAS BIBLICAL from the reformation. Why do you think you have to spoon feed me that their attendance is down and they're secularizing. I posted the attendance rate (15% for Finland) in this thread and the secularizing bit over yonder in the main board auditorim.As for the other nations BC, according to the Bible, they were allowed to rise by Providence for his purposes. Like Nebuchadnezzar, according to the Bible was raised up, at least for one reason to deal with rebellious Israel. The Greeks did a lot to prepare the world for the advancement of the gospel of Jesus with their popular language, commerce, maritime and roadbuilding, etc so that when the Roman Empire emerged a lot of this was in place for the first advent of Messiah. (According to most of us Christobibliofundies)Now Schraf, don't get all fussed up. I'm not expecting you to believe that, and don't expect me to document as it would take a page to explain it all.

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The Greeks did a lot to prepare the world for the advancement of the gospel of Jesus with their popular language, commerce, maritime and roadbuilding, etc so that when the Roman Empire emerged a lot of this was in place for the first advent of Messiah. (According to most of us Christobibliofundies)

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So what do you say about Mohammed then?

I should add that the Romans did a lota commerce and same stuff the Greeks did. This all made for a rapid advancement of the new gospel of Jesus which he prophesied that his itty bitty new little religion would be preached world wide before his prophesied 2nd advent (soon to come) according to all the latter day prophecies.

Mohammed was a nobody until he married into money, became rich and powerful and forced all the other pagans to worship his favorite god, Allah by the sword. Before Islam there were about 260 or so pagan gods worshipped at Mecca, Allah being one of them. After Mohammed there was one -- Allah, once known as the moon god. He (Mohammed) rode trade caravans and was so busy killing men, terrorizing, slave trading wives and children of the slaughtered men and entertaining his 16 or so wives that about all he accomplished was his own bloody agenda and writing the Koran. His most devout followers are still at it. About 30 oppressed nations are now under Islamic rule and they're not finished yet. His religion will go all the way to Armageddon by the sword and continue the carnage every step of the way. Only the 2nd advent of Christ at Armageddon will stop Islam, closely allied by Russia, but not so close to China. Christianity is the number one rival and target of Islam and imo, they an/or the communists will nuke Vatican City off the map in the not too distant future.There's more. I may do a thread on it some time. When Newsmax forum was going and 9/11 occured I was buzzboy in the middle of a debate with an Islamic fellow about whether Islam was a violent religion. Definitely not the show and tell documentation I had in mind, but so much for the debate.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-23-2003]