One Word Got Me In Trouble.

buzsaw writes:

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Neither the OT or the NT allows for Christians to kill heretics or infidels.

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Someone needs to read Leviticus again. There are all sorts of reasons to kill people there.There's a famous biblical quote of, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Because of that quote, many people were killed here in the United States, or does Salem, Massachussetts not ring any bells?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Come now Buzz. Jehoveh (AKA the LORD, or Yahweh) gave specific directions regarding when and how to kill heretics and infidels. Jesus himself supported those directives, threatening individuals, institutions, and whole cities with fiery destruction, just as the LORD had prescribed. But of course those instructions are not aimed at Christians. "Christians" did not exist until long after Jesus was gone. I'm getting embarrassed for you Buzz. You really must read the Bible sometime. Really? So, who killed Ananias and Saphira? They disagree, and so do I. You should get away from the guided tour and visit the Bible-Times ghetto. (Be afraid. Be very afraid.) Now here is an honest declaration, whether you realize it or not. How clever of you to qualify your statement saying, "nearly all," and "true Christians." In other words:
An unspecified number of "true Christians" have not recognized that fact and have not lived accordingly! They have believed that the Bible instructs them to do violence to unbelievers and they have done so. Praise the LORD.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

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buzsaw writes:
Neither the OT or the NT allows for Christians to kill heretics or infidels.

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Come now Buzz. Jehoveh (AKA the LORD, or Yahweh) gave specific directions regarding when and how to kill heretics and infidels. Jesus himself supported those directives, threatening individuals, institutions, and whole cities with fiery destruction, just as the LORD had prescribed. But of course those instructions are not aimed at Christians. "Christians" did not exist until long after Jesus was gone.

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Ok Doc. C'mon. where's the documentation that Any Biblical text, commandment or directive allows or instructs Christians to kill heretics, infidels or anyone?

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Only on specific occasions were specific people given the order to kill in the OT

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I'm getting embarrassed for you Buzz. You really must read the Bible sometime.

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Be fair. Documentation that I'm wrong, please.

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and Jesus and the apostles never allowed for any of this killing by Christians in the NT.

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Really? So, who killed Ananias and Saphira?

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Paul prophesied it was going to happen and God did it. Paul had no weapon and used no force.

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Any who do so are acting contrary to the clear doctrines of the Bible whether they be Protestant or Catholic.

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They disagree, and so do I. You should get away from the guided tour and visit the Bible-Times ghetto. (Be afraid. Be very afraid.)

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Again, Biblical documentation, please.

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Nearly all true Christians have recognize that fact and lived according,

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Now here is an honest declaration, whether you realize it or not. How clever of you to qualify your statement saying, "nearly all," and "true Christians." In other words:
An unspecified number of "true Christians" have not recognized that fact and have not lived accordingly! They have believed that the Bible instructs them to do violence to unbelievers and they have done so.

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Any of the tiny minority of true Christians who've committed murder in this way have sinned in so doing and should pay the civil penalty and repent before God.Your refutation attempt here is underwhelming I'm afraid, Doc. Better go to something you know more about.

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Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

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1. We who don't think we know it all keep on searching and learning. 2. The Bible is like a cold spring in a hot desert. It's our refreshing, comforting and insprirational ongoing place to go. (Hope you don't mind my commenting on your signature. Feel free to give your response to mine.)------------------
Surely the Lord Jehovah will do nothing except he reveal the secret to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

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The Bible is like a cold spring in a hot desert. It's our refreshing, comforting and insprirational ongoing place to go.

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Can't argue with that. If you read the right bits, it's extremely comforting. We humans love to be comforted.That doesn't make it the truth.------------------
o--greyline--o

buzsaw responds to doctrbill:

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Ok Doc. C'mon. where's the documentation that Any Biblical text, commandment or directive allows or instructs Christians to kill heretics, infidels or anyone?

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Oh, please. I already told you where to look. When was the last time you read Leviticus?Lev. 20:2: Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.What do you think "put to death" means? It even prescribes the method by which someone is supposed to be killed for giving his seed unto Molech: Stoning.My lord, Leviticus 20 is filled with reasons to kill people:Cursing your parents (Lev. 20:9)
Both parties in adultery (Lev. 20:10)
A man who has sex with his father's wife and the woman, too (Lev 20:11)
A man who has sex with his daughter-in-law and the woman, too (Lev. 20:12)
Bisexuals (Lev. 20:13)
A man who has sex with his wife and her mother, and the women, too (Lev. 20:14)
A man who has sex with an anmial and the animal, too (Lev. 20:15)
A woman who has sex with an animal and the animal, too (Lev. 20:16)
Those with familiars or are wizards (Lev. 20:27)And that's just that one chapter.I should point out that some sexual trysts apparently aren't as bad. If you have sex with your sister or half-sister, with a menstruating woman, or with a blood-aunt on either side, you'll simply be cast out of your village. Have sex with a marriage-aunt or your sister-in-law, you'll simply be childless.Of course, there's a problem with that last one...the sin of Onan was precisely that he wouldn't have sex with his sister-in-law:Genesis 38:8: And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.38:9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.38:10: And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.Compare this to:Leviticus 20:21: And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.So which is it? Are you allowed to have sex with your brother's wife (albeit only under specific circumstances) or not?And those are just the commandments. God doesn't seem to mind killing. For example, when Abram heard that his brother Lot was taken captive, he raised an army against them "and smote them":Genesis 14:14: And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.14:15: And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.When Judah finds out that his daughter-in-law is pregnant by someone she wasn't married to, he orders her execution:Genesis 38:24: And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.What about Moses?Exodus 2:11: And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.2:12: And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.Notice the cowardice in Moses...he could only do it when nobody was looking and he hid the body.And then there's Joshua:Exodus 17:13: And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.And the sacredness of Mt. Sinai:Exodus 19:12: And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:19:13: There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shallac not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.If you kill your parents, you are to be killed:Exodus 21:15: And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.Engaging in slavery is a capital offense:Exodus 21:16: And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.Simply cursing your parents is good enough to die (foreshadowing Leviticus):Exodus 21:17: And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.Then there's this bizarre one about harming a woman who is pregnant:Exodus 21:22: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.21:23: And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,In other words, if you attack a pregnant woman and she miscarries but does die, you're only subject to a fine. But if she dies, you die.And then we get the general theme of the Old Testament:Exodus 21:24: Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,21:25: Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.With this statement, how can one say that the Bible doesn't condone killing?We have this commandment to the sons of Levi as decreed by Moses:Exodus 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.32:28: And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.Exodus then goes on with similar commandments to kill people:Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live (Ex. 22:18)
Bestiality (Ex 22:19)
Those who worship other gods (Ex. 22:20)
Those who break the Sabbath (Ex. 30:14, 35:2-3)And some new ones:Take a bath before going to tabernacle or die (Ex. 30:20-21)And this truly bizarre one:Exodus 34:20: But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.The phrasing's a bit bizarre, but it sounds like if your first born grandchildren cannot be redeemed, you're to break their necks just like if you cannot redeem the firstling of your ass.And that's just Genesis, Exodus, and a single chapter of Leviticus.Do you really want me to go through the rest? In Matthew 15, Jesus repeats the commandments about those who curse their parents are to be put to death. Acts 3:23 has Peter saying that those who don't follow god will be put to death (of course, Peter is misquoting Deuteronomy 18 at that point, but why quibble...he's saying that people should be killed.)

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true Christians

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Logical error: No "true" Scotsman fallacy.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phew!!Thanks Rrhain. You saved me a lot of trouble. As you have no doubt noticed, the most vehement supporters of buzz-type rhetoric seem to be those least acquainted with holy scripture. db

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Engaging in slavery is a capital offense:

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Exodus 21:16: And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

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I believe this one refers to in-house matters, Jew on Jew kidnapping and sale. The Hebrews themselves made slaves of neighboring tribes.

Rrhain, thanks so very much! You went to all this work and research to document the following statement in my post 149. That was very Christian of you to bless your ideological adversary in such a loving manner. Buz post 149 statement:
Only on specific occasions were specific people given the order to kill in the OT and Jesus and the apostles never allowed for any of this killing by Christians in the NT.Rrhain & Doc, if and when the difference between Judiasm/Jews of the OT and Christianity/Christians of the NT ever sinks in, get back to me on this.The Biblical dispensation of the New Testament age is well known to Biblical scholars as the "Age of Grace." It was also depicted by Jesus, himself as the "times of the Gentiles," allowing that the gentile believers were to be "grafted into the Kingdom of God by being born of his spirit, the Holy Spirit into his kingdom as children of him.

This is hardly an appropriate response. Your assertion has been thorougly met by a withering rebuttal. Why not explain how Rrhains revelation does not apply? He did, after all, address your assertions regarding the Apostles and the New Testament. Now you want to quit? Take your time but please give answer.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

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Do you really want me to go through the rest? In Matthew 15, Jesus repeats the commandments about those who curse their parents are to be put to death. Acts 3:23 has Peter saying that those who don't follow god will be put to death (of course, Peter is misquoting Deuteronomy 18 at that point, but why quibble...he's saying that people should be killed.)

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Nonee. He is quoting the OT commandment to the Pharasees in an encounter with them about honoring parents. He said they were giving excuses for breaking the commandment to honor parents. Neither he nor his apostles taught that these punishments should be administered. In fact, he demonstrated this to be the case when the woman was caught in adultery in John chapter 8. The Pharasees brought a woman to him caught in the act of adultery. They reminded him of the death penalty for such under the law and asked him what he would do to her. He wrote some things in the sand and after her accusers left one by one, he said that he would not condemn her (referring to the penalty under the law) but that she should go and sin no more.Acts 3:23 is in no way instructing anyone to kill those who would not listen to Jesus whom the prophecy is about. If that were the case, Jesus and the apostles would've had to do a lot of killing, for multitudes were not listening to him. He was simply saying that destruction would come upon those who would not listen and receive his message, the gospel. That destruction is the condemnation of final judgement which he preached throughtout his ministry concerning those who rejected his salvation of grace which he came to effect.

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Neither the Pilgrims who risked the deadly voyages to cross the oceans to find freedom and deliverance from oppression or the Jews who fled Europe to be free and safe were rapists of peoples.

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What do you call what the Pilgrims did to the Native Americans after those same Native Americans helped them survive that first winter?We proceeded to nearly exterminate them.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-09-2003]

Obviously you haven't heard of the Reformation. Since I know English history best, I will point out that persecution of Catholics started with Hnry VIII when he broke with Rome, and continued with most of his immediate successors (except for Mary, who persecuted Protestants instead).
When the Puritans took over governemnt, deposing and executing Charles I they continued persection - Cromwell's memory is still hated in Ireland for what he did.I've already mentioned that the Protestant Council of Geneva had Michael Servetus burnt to death. And of course the German rulers who turned to Protestantism also persecuted Catholics. I don't know what the ratio was - but I doubt that it was grossly skewed, or indicates any less ferocity on the part of the persecutors.Since I note that you insist that Christian scriputre does not support the execution of heretics then presumably you also do not consider Calvinists, Lutherans or Anglicans to be Christian any more than Catholics. That's a lot of Protestants. And that's just the Reformation - earlier Christian history before the Roman Catholic chruch split from the rest has some nasty episodes in suppressing "heresis", too. I wonder if there are ANY Christians by your standards ? The Society of Friends (Quakers), perhaps ?

So, he threatened people with fiery death and then let them go peacefully in their sleep? And then, in order to make his threat good, in order to punish them, to make them really suffer, he has to resurrect them, bring them back to life and then kill them as he promised? Nice guy.------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

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Neither the Pilgrims who risked the deadly voyages to cross the oceans to find freedom and deliverance from oppression or the Jews who fled Europe to be free and safe were rapists of peoples.

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The Pilgims didn't come to America for freedom.That is part of the historical mythology of the founding of the US that we were taught as school children. I'm afraid it's not exactly accurate.They came to escape religious persecution, but they were not interested at all in anyone else's freedom. They were very strict in their rules and everyone had to abide by them or be persecuted.They wanted to be free to persecute others rather than be the persecutees, I suppose. LOL!

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So, he threatened people with fiery death and then let them go peacefully in their sleep? And then, in order to make his threat good, in order to punish them, to make them really suffer, he has to resurrect them, bring them back to life and then kill them as he promised? Nice guy.

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No. Nice god. He cared enough that he gave us and alternative of either the pearly gates and golden streets or the other. What else can I say. If he be the true god, who are we, the finite creatures to shake our itty bitty fists at him. That just puts us in greater peril. "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom," wisely states King Solomon.