One Word Got Me In Trouble.

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It is essentially one of the Ten Commandments of the Bible. I'm not aware of any other literature which predates that.

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Why is whether or not a religion which has the "Golden Rule" predates the Bible, important in this discussion?I thought that we were discussing your claim that the countries that followed the tenets of Christianity were the most successful.It seems to me that this, most importantly, would mean that the people believe that Jesus was the son of God, was raised after 3 days, etc.That is what makes people identify as Christian, correct, not that they also follow the Golden Rule?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-02-2003]

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Well, Asgara's post #105 in this very thread lists many other religions which have a similar rule, several of which predate the Bible.

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But Schrafinator, did you read my last post thoughtfully? I documented that by Jesus's own words his golden rule 2nd commandment was a concise sumary of the last six commandments of Moses, all having to do with relating to man whereas the first four commandments, i.e. Jesus's first commandment summarized the first four commandments. No He did not specifically state the ten, but they are the foundational structure of the law and the prophets.------------------
Surely the Lord Jehovah will do nothing except he reveal the secret to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

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But Schrafinator, did you read my last post thoughtfully? I documented that by Jesus's own words his golden rule 2nd commandment was a concise sumary of the last six commandments of Moses, all having to do with relating to man whereas the first four commandments, i.e. Jesus's first commandment summarized the first four commandments. No He did not specifically state the ten, but they are the foundational structure of the law and the prophets.

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Ok.So, do you accept that several other religions, which pre-date Christianity and Judaism, have a "Golden Rule" as part of their tennets?Remember, what we are discussing here is your claim that Christian nations are more successful primarily because they follow Christian tennets.Currently, we are discussing which tennets of Christianity are exclusive to Christianity which would also tend to translate into the success of a nation and prosperity of it's people.So far, you have not come up with any exclusively Christian tennets of this type.

Of course, just like I said, Buzz is never wrong! These comments reflect a profound misunderstanding. I haven't been keeping score on how many times everyone admits error, but you don't seem to realize that your task and our task are very different. In our case we are only trying to accurately represent the position of science as supported by currently available evidence. As has been explained to you many times, science is tentative and makes no claim to infallibility, but it does require evidence, and so the positions we present to you have been studied and researched, have been presented in scientific papers and at conferences and have been read, reviewed, debated and pondered, have been replicated many times, have been proved to have predictive power, and have stood the test of time. As long as we read and understand the science and don't make too many typos, there is little possibility of being wrong. While our views are not correct for all time (ie, they don't represent truth, since theory is always tentative and could change), they are supported by mountains of evidence and analysis.You, on the other hand, are trying to falsify science from your armchair using websites authored by people and groups whose goal is not the furtherance of science but rather the persuasion of the faithful that there really is no legitimate threat to faith from evolution because it is all a bunch of malarkey. They do no legitimate research, have no peer reviewed conferences or journals, have never contributed anything to scientific knowledge, and do not even have a unified viewpoint. You are forced to improvise as you go along, and you have to do so without evidence.This is why the debate feels so one-sided to you - because it is. We accept the theory of evolution not because of some strange mass psychosis or improbable religious belief, but because of the evidence. Until you figure out how to support your conclusions with evidence you are doomed to be endlessly on the short end. As I just said, Creationists have no unified perspective. In practically every thread here it is one Creationist against a flood of evolutionists because there is no other Creationist who shares those views, while all the evolutionists simply adhere to the scientific view that's supported by the evidence, of which there is only one.First find the evidence, Buzz, then argue the position.--Percy

buzsaw writes:

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That's ok, my friend. Some day you'll come to realize you don't have it all quite right and understand.

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Is that Pascal's Wager I hear?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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Remember, what we are discussing here is your claim that Christian nations are more successful primarily because they follow Christian tennets.

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1. My claim is that free and blessed nations follow Biblical principles which include much of the OT as well as the gospels and epistles of the NT. I say "much of," as some in the OT was exclusive to Israel. There are exceptions, but by and large, this is true to history.2. When free and blessed nations move away from those principles, the freedom and the blessings either diminish or cease, such was always the case with the nation of Israel.

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Well, Asgara's post #105 in this very thread lists many other religions which have a similar rule, several of which predate the Bible.

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Here is Asgara's post again:

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1. There's more to Biblical principles than the golden rule. It is second to loving God (Jehovah) with all of one's being. There are scores of other instructiona, more specific from the Bible which factor in.2. Which countries of these other religions are as blessed, prosperous and free as we here in the US? How many of these nations have a history of following the golden rule to the extent that the US has in things like foreign aid to distressed nations, feeding the hungry and freeing the oppressed? Surely not Islam, Wicca/paganism or Hinduism. These are the ones we are often called upon to aid.

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1. My claim is that free and blessed nations follow Biblical principles which include much of the OT as well as the gospels and epistles of the NT. I say "much of," as some in the OT was exclusive to Israel. There are exceptions, but by and large, this is true to history.

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What part or tennet of Christianity endorses or encourages individual freedom?(I think this is the 5th time I've asked this...)

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2. When free and blessed nations move away from those principles, the freedom and the blessings either diminish or cease, such was always the case with the nation of Israel.

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Sweden has one of the best standards of living in the world for it's citizens, and it is also one of the most secular countries in the world.You have yet to provide any compelling, specific evidence to make your case.You spend all of your time dancing around giving non-answers and moving the goalposts instead of answering direct questions.

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1. There's more to Biblical principles than the golden rule. It is second to loving God (Jehovah) with all of one's being. There are scores of other instructiona, more specific from the Bible which factor in.

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OK.Which Christian principles, specifically, are not present in other value systems?Of these exclusively-Christian values, which ones promote success regardless of access to natural resources?

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2. Which countries of these other religions are as blessed, prosperous and free as we here in the US?

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Hmm,Japan is pretty prosperous, and they have much lower crime rates than we do, and better-educated citizens.

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How many of these nations have a history of following the golden rule to the extent that the US has in things like foreign aid to distressed nations, feeding the hungry and freeing the oppressed?

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Oh please. We were GIVING MILLIONS IN AID TO THE TALIBAN!!! We SUPPORTED SADDAM HUSSEIN IN THE 80'S EVEN THOUGH WE KNEW HE WAS A LUNATIC AND WERE GASSING HIS OWN PEOPLE!!! WE ARE PAKISTAN'S BEST BUDDY EVEN THOUGH THE CURRENT MILITARY DICTATOR CAME TO POWER IN A BLOODY COUP!!! WE ARRANGED FOR THE REMOVAL OF A DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED LEADER IN IRAN AND REPLACED HIM WITH THE TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT OF THE SHAH, WHICH BROUGHT ABOUT THE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER BY THE IATOLLAH KHOMEINI!!!(end rant)We have always supported dictators and murderous religious regimes when it served our purposes.

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Surely not Islam, Wicca/paganism or Hinduism. These are the ones we are often called upon to aid.

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We give aid where it is politically useful to do so, not out of the goodness of our hearts.That's why we gave aid to the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein, and Pakistan.

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WE ARRANGED FOR THE REMOVAL OF A DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED LEADER IN IRAN AND REPLACED HIM WITH THE TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT OF THE SHAH, WHICH BROUGHT ABOUT THE RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER BY THE IATOLLAH KHOMEINI!!!

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Don't forget that the US also overthrew the democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala resulting in 200,000 civilians dying as a result.Additionally America staged a coup in Chile. Their democratically elected president Salvador Allende died - assassinated because of this. The US then installed a dictator called Augusto Pinochet who went on to murder 5,000 Chileans.And of course Noriega in 1989, blablabla...

Ok, John, I concede the point. And I understand what you're saying.I still don't think that the Rede is a step backward, though. How many people are familiar enough with pagan beliefs that they can grasp what Crowley actually meant as opposed to what it looks like he meant? I understand that "Do what Thou Wilt" really means, but any average Christian who doesn't know much about it will automatically assume that it means, as you say, "Do whatever the hell you want". The Rede is at least less ambiguous on the subject.It's actually occured to me that the Rede in its entirety has very little to do with Crowley's Law - so this is probably not worth debating further.Even if Crowley wasn't responsible for Satanism, he's certainly heavily connected to it. In a quick google search I found any number of Satanist websites that mentioned him - trying to find one informed site was a total nightmare... Oh well.The Rock Hound

I just read the rest of the thread after posting that - buzsaw, who the hell are you kidding?Case in point - Ireland. We're one of the last great bastions of Catholicism, and have been for donkey's years. As Christian as the Pope, you might say.If people can pardon my language, we're pretty f**ked up as countries go. The 'Golden Rule' might as well not exist, the government is corrupt and incompetant, the cost of EVERYTHING is rising faster than ever and there are more scandals, tribunals, trials, blah blah blah...I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly about this subject. Take a good long look at us, and see what Christianity has done.

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I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly about this subject. Take a good long look at us, and see what Christianity has done.

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Of course, IRH, I can pretty accurately predict what Buzsaw will say.He will say something about Catholocism not being "real" Christianity.He made a comment about Catholocism elsewhere in which he stated that "Nobody did well under Catholocism."Of course, never mind that Catholocism was the only kind of Christianity for many centuries before the Protestant Reformation....bloody rebels.

Why don't we all wait to read what he actually does have to say instead of "predicting"? ------------------

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All the boys think she's a spy

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Because it is so damned easy to guess...------------------
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