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Author Topic:   atheism
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 111 (6257)
03-07-2002 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by nator
03-07-2002 5:57 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
DS: Are you are saying that God is such that He cannot be known by man or that He simply doesn't exist? Either way, you are claiming to know something about God. This claim to knowledge is inconsistent with your claim to be an atheist


I am in no way inconsistant. I stated that we have no observable evidence of a greater being, a god, or of planet eating turtles ravaging the cosmos. As there is no obsevable data in support of a god, I doubt in the existance of such a being. How can I have knowledge of something we have no evidence for?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nator, posted 03-07-2002 5:57 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by nator, posted 03-09-2002 6:19 AM Darwin Storm has not yet responded

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 5741 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 32 of 111 (6271)
03-07-2002 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by bretheweb
03-05-2002 11:51 AM


I quite agree... I've asked this question for a while now and all I get are non-answers... "god is good, god is love, god is perfect, etc."...
---those are answers
I'd like someone to explain to me how god can be "everywhere", ie., omnipresent, and yet as a strong atheist, I have to go looking for him across the far corners of the known universe.
Is god in hiding?
---If you saw him you wouldnt have to have faith anymore, it wouldnt require anything on your part.

What I want to know is how god can be claimed to be omniscient, "he knows what you're going to do", and we can still pretend we have free will?
---Humans are very very predictable

What I want to know is how can an "all loving" (omnibenevolent?) god tolerate the cruelty and vileness that are embodied by some aspects of humanity?
---He doesnt tolerate it but he still loves us.

here's what i believe- the universe, or cosmos, which may be composed of millions of universes, is infinite... it had no beginning, and will have no end... thus it had no creation, and therefore no creator...
--that requires as much faith as Christianity does, probably more faith actually. Actually its uncertain if the universe is unlimited and im sure if the big bang just happened then itll end just as soon and their goes everything science has accomplished with it.

Hmmm... You might want to pick up the April '02 issue of Discover magazine for the article "Guth's Grand Guess" pp32.
Inflationary theory is, based on recent observations, pretty much the dominant Big Bang theory right now.
I liked this line, "The primordial "stuff" of inflation, he and other cosmologists contend, is very likely a spontaneous creation, a no-strings gift that boiled out of absolutely nowhere by means of an utterly random but nontheless scientifically possible process."
And, "All matter plus all gravity in the observable universe equals zero. So the universe could come from nothing because it is, fundamentally, nothing."
---Thats feasable, ive always thought our souls were on a different plane of existence.

//so why do we need a god?//
To comfort us in our fears and to try to explain the "unexplainable" to people unable to grasp complex concepts.
---we need God because he is God and because he is love and he is.

//if we stopped thinking in such geocentric dimensions, maybe we'd realize how small we are...//
If you shrink the earth the the size of a cue ball the earth would smoother than the surface of the cue ball.
The entire ecosystem of the earth extends from roughly 100 miles up to about 20 miles below the surface.
Dunk that cue ball in a muddy, algae-ladden puddle of water and whatever sticks is pretty much the earth.
Its all about scale.
---We are insignificant when compared to our Creator And Savior.

------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by bretheweb, posted 03-05-2002 11:51 AM bretheweb has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 3:36 AM KingPenguin has not yet responded

    
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 111 (6282)
03-08-2002 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by KingPenguin
03-07-2002 11:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[b]I quite agree... I've asked this question for a while now and all I get are non-answers... "god is good, god is love, god is perfect, etc."...
---those are answers[/QUOTE]

sorry- those aren't answers- i'm asking if god id white or blacdk or muslim or asia- and why is he a man?

quote:

I'd like someone to explain to me how god can be "everywhere", ie., omnipresent, and yet as a strong atheist, I have to go looking for him across the far corners of the known universe.
Is god in hiding?
---If you saw him you wouldnt have to have faith anymore, it wouldnt require anything on your part.

fine, but what does this answer?

quote:

What I want to know is how god can be claimed to be omniscient, "he knows what you're going to do", and we can still pretend we have free will?
---Humans are very very predictable

no, no, no. i thought he knew the past present and future. I thought he was all-knowing, and therefore knew everything?

quote:

What I want to know is how can an "all loving" (omnibenevolent?) god tolerate the cruelty and vileness that are embodied by some aspects of humanity?
---He doesnt tolerate it but he still loves us.

everyone except non-creationist christians, catholics, mormons, jews, muslims, atheists, hindus, buddhists, aboriginals, afircans, russian-orthodoxes, chinese, and africans.

the all-loving god loves 0.001 of the world population. Heaven must be a lonely place...

quote:

here's what i believe- the universe, or cosmos, which may be composed of millions of universes, is infinite... it had no beginning, and will have no end... thus it had no creation, and therefore no creator...
--that requires as much faith as Christianity does, probably more faith actually. Actually its uncertain if the universe is unlimited and im sure if the big bang just happened then itll end just as soon and their goes everything science has accomplished with it.

atheism is based on faith as much as christianity. both are well within the laws of whysics, although you can use another forum to go into that. but creationism, on the other hand, requires you to believe that god made the earth stand still so that the israelites could have an extra day battling. who's the faithful one now?

quote:

Hmmm... You might want to pick up the April '02 issue of Discover magazine for the article "Guth's Grand Guess" pp32.
Inflationary theory is, based on recent observations, pretty much the dominant Big Bang theory right now.
I liked this line, "The primordial "stuff" of inflation, he and other cosmologists contend, is very likely a spontaneous creation, a no-strings gift that boiled out of absolutely nowhere by means of an utterly random but nontheless scientifically possible process."
And, "All matter plus all gravity in the observable universe equals zero. So the universe could come from nothing because it is, fundamentally, nothing."
---Thats feasable, ive always thought our souls were on a different plane of existence.

[sniggers]

quote:

//so why do we need a god?//
To comfort us in our fears and to try to explain the "unexplainable" to people unable to grasp complex concepts.
---we need God because he is God and because he is love and he is.

prove it.

[QUOTE]
//if we stopped thinking in such geocentric dimensions, maybe we'd realize how small we are...//
If you shrink the earth the the size of a cue ball the earth would smoother than the surface of the cue ball.
The entire ecosystem of the earth extends from roughly 100 miles up to about 20 miles below the surface.
Dunk that cue ball in a muddy, algae-ladden puddle of water and whatever sticks is pretty much the earth.
Its all about scale.
---We are insignificant when compared to our Creator And Savior.

[/b]


when did i bring up the issue of god? compared to the universe, we are indescirbably small. you did not address that issue in the slightest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by KingPenguin, posted 03-07-2002 11:43 PM KingPenguin has not yet responded

  
Punisher
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 111 (6294)
03-08-2002 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Quetzal
03-07-2002 8:59 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzal:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Punisher:

Its a fairly safe assumption to say that you must input intelligence and information to output order and complexity.


quote:
Either I'm getting old or I need another drink, but I have absolutely no idea what this sentence means - at least in the context of living systems.

Punisher, pretend that I'm ignorant and please explain just what you are describing here. Since I really only understand those things that have a relationship with the real, concrete, empirical world, a specific example from nature - not pseudo-philosophical handwaving - would be appreciated. (Cobra, if you're reading this, I see the quoted sentence as a prime example of a Shannon-Weaver system that has reached maximum information entropy.)

Honestly, from here, it appears you've managed to put pop pseudo-science, argument from personal incredulity, and cyber-babble into one sentence. Impressive...


I'm picking up trace amounts of sarcasm and condecension. Oh wait, I've identified it; an insult. Your well thought out post is a prime example of what I thought to be a simple observation/assumption. You took letters and placed them together to form words, you spaced the words at certain intervals in order to get sentence structure. The information from your post did not come from the computer or the keyboard; it came from you inputting intelligence and information the result being an ordered and complex insult in english language expressed in written form.

BTW, pour me a drink too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Quetzal, posted 03-07-2002 8:59 AM Quetzal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 8:39 AM Punisher has responded

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 111 (6307)
03-08-2002 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Punisher
03-08-2002 7:14 AM


punisher

you're really starting to get aggressive.

but since you're right, give me a solid, indisputable piece of evidence that discounts the possibilty that god does not exist. one piece of evidence that would make stephen hawking gape.

that's your challenge.

but maybe you'd like a drink first.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 7:14 AM Punisher has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 8:48 AM quicksink has responded

  
Punisher
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 111 (6309)
03-08-2002 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by quicksink
03-08-2002 8:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by quicksink:
punisher

you're really starting to get aggressive.

but since you're right, give me a solid, indisputable piece of evidence that discounts the possibilty that god does not exist. one piece of evidence that would make stephen hawking gape.

that's your challenge.

but maybe you'd like a drink first.


I apologize if I insulted anyone. I'll take that drink; care to join me?

QS: first answer this question: There are three basic types of agnostics. I wonder which kind you are.

The first says, `I don't know, but I wish I did.' The second says, `I don't know, and I don't care.' The last says, `I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 8:39 AM quicksink has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by joz, posted 03-08-2002 9:17 AM Punisher has not yet responded
 Message 38 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 10:03 PM Punisher has not yet responded
 Message 40 by quicksink, posted 03-08-2002 11:22 PM Punisher has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 111 (6311)
03-08-2002 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Punisher
03-08-2002 8:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Punisher:
There are three basic types of agnostics. I wonder which kind you are.

The first says, "I don't know, but I wish I did." The second says, "I don't know, and I don't care." The last says, "I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know."


How about type 4:
"I don't know, you don't know, nobody can know and I really don`t give a damm what you think provided you accept what I think as being a valid alternative..."?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 8:48 AM Punisher has not yet responded

  
Punisher
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 111 (6342)
03-08-2002 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Punisher
03-08-2002 8:48 AM


first answer this question: There are three basic types of agnostics. I wonder which kind you are.

The first says, `I don't know, but I wish I did.' The second says, `I don't know, and I don't care.' The last says, `I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know.

QS: You skipped this question. Care to comment?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 8:48 AM Punisher has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-08-2002 10:21 PM Punisher has not yet responded

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 111 (6343)
03-08-2002 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Punisher
03-08-2002 10:03 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Punisher:
first answer this question: There are three basic types of agnostics. I wonder which kind you are.

The first says, `I don't know, but I wish I did.' The second says, `I don't know, and I don't care.' The last says, `I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know.

QS: You skipped this question. Care to comment?


Course you could be in the atheist camp, in which those questions are meaningless. They have meaning to you because you believe in an all mighty being. However, if we take something, say, like Giagantic Pink Space Bunnies of DOOM that go around comsuming stars, we both probably can agree there is no such thing ( there is a possibility, but it passes the absurd, and has no proof to support its existance.) I could ask you about the Death Bunnies OF DOOM (we will call them DBD for short ; ) Well, how do you feel about the DBD's?
Do you say.......
a.)I don't know, but I wish I did.
b.)I don't know, and I don't care.
c.)I don't know, you don't know, and nobody can know.
or
d.)What kind of crack are you smoking? You need some mental help! (then shake your head, wish the person asking you such a silly a question the best, and go on your merry way.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 10:03 PM Punisher has not yet responded

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 111 (6345)
03-08-2002 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Punisher
03-08-2002 8:48 AM


can i add a d?

i am an atheist who believes that the universe was created through a natural process. i do not believe that there had to be a creator. simple.

now again- where is your evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Punisher, posted 03-08-2002 8:48 AM Punisher has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by KingPenguin, posted 03-09-2002 2:00 AM quicksink has responded

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 5741 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 41 of 111 (6365)
03-09-2002 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by quicksink
03-08-2002 11:22 PM


wheres yours?
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by quicksink, posted 03-09-2002 3:59 AM KingPenguin has responded

    
Solid Snake
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 111 (6370)
03-09-2002 3:51 AM


I don't necesarily consider myself an athiest, but putting blind faith in "The creator" seems a little ludicrus to me. The entire bases for your train of thought is very primitive. Your own fear of your own insignificance causes you to blindly put your faith in God. When in fact, your inability to comprehend any natural forces capable of creating a universe adds to it. And you simply state "Oh well it can't be done, ther must be a god!"
Just because of a lack of understanding of science, you just assume that there must be a greater force simply because science cannot fully back up it's theories.
If you recall several ancient civilizations did the same thing. Anything they could not explain, they simply blamed on the Gods.
Keep in mind, I am not a full athiest. I beleive there is a logical balance between creation and science. It obvious many of you will get angry reading, but just think about why that is. You certainly would'nt care about my gullability. Is it possible this makes sense and your doubting your own beliefs?

------------------
"There is no true reality. Things are only as real as your mind says it is. You have to find something to believe in, something worth fighting for, and pass it on to future generations." ~~David Hayter


  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 111 (6371)
03-09-2002 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by KingPenguin
03-09-2002 2:00 AM


quote:
Originally posted by KingPenguin:
wheres yours?

you're starting to get the point KP- both of us have no evidence

yet let me raise this point- science has never found anything supernatural

humanity has never witnesses a major supernatural event.

so far, we have explained everything from tornadoes to stars as natural abojects ruled by natural laws.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by KingPenguin, posted 03-09-2002 2:00 AM KingPenguin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by KingPenguin, posted 03-09-2002 1:50 PM quicksink has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 27 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 111 (6377)
03-09-2002 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Darwin Storm
03-07-2002 5:12 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm:
I am in no way inconsistant. I stated that we have no observable evidence of a greater being, a god, or of planet eating turtles ravaging the cosmos. As there is no obsevable data in support of a god, I doubt in the existance of such a being. How can I have knowledge of something we have no evidence for?

Sorry, Punisher said this in reply to you, and I was replying to Punisher but I left this bit of his message at the end of my reply.

I do not question why you are an athiest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-07-2002 5:12 PM Darwin Storm has not yet responded

    
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 5741 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 45 of 111 (6422)
03-09-2002 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by quicksink
03-09-2002 3:59 AM


theyre are still things that are unexplained and are paranormal. such as ghosts and ufos but lets not go down that road.

------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by quicksink, posted 03-09-2002 3:59 AM quicksink has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by nator, posted 03-10-2002 8:12 AM KingPenguin has not yet responded

    
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