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Author Topic:   I know God exists & the court of highest appeal is me.
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 94 (459060)
03-03-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by iano
03-03-2008 12:24 PM


The concluding point of my arguing so is to stalemate the objection "how do you know it is God and not Shiva". The question is as useless as the question "how do you know you are not a brain in a jar"
The honest answer to both those questions is that you don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by iano, posted 03-03-2008 12:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 03-03-2008 3:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 94 (459070)
03-03-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
03-03-2008 3:16 PM


True. What we can all say is that "I know x - subject to my perception of reality accurately reflecting whatever the actual reality happens to be."
You're using the word "know" differently from how people typically use it. I wouldn't say that you know god exsts.

If satan decieves someone into thinking that he is god, by your definition that person would know that it is god, even though it wasn't. I think that is a problem with your definition.
Also, if you really do know that god exists, then you don't have faith that he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 03-03-2008 3:16 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by iano, posted 03-04-2008 10:44 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 94 (459105)
03-03-2008 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Blue Jay
03-03-2008 6:18 PM


Re: All in the Same Boat
You seem to doing the same thing that you accuse iano of doing...
That is:
Not being able to tell the difference, yet assuming there is a difference.
You say:
If both manifest the same way, the same logic applies in describing them both. Only in places where the two would of necessity be different (which, you assert, is nowhere) would this line of reasoning be in any way meaningful.
and then you conclude:
Therefore, if reality is objective and external, the interpretation of reality that is most objective and external is most likely to be correct. Well, seeing how religion relies on personal feelings and interpretations, while science relies on outside observation and repeatability, I submit that science is more objective and more external. So, here are the two options that this entire line of reasoning permits:
(1) Subjective reality: We're both wrong
(2) Objective reality: You're wrong
Don't you, in arriving at your conclusion, assume a difference here:
So, the question is, either the "external reality" is the right boat, or it's the wrong boat. If it's wrong, then both theists and atheists are wrong together. If it's not wrong, at least one of us is still wrong (because, in an external, objective reality, we can't both be right).
So, we're only in the same boat if we're all wrong. This doesn't drive the argument to stalemate, because it only stalemates under the condition that everybody's wrong. This effectively polarizes the argument (i.e. leaves no room for middle ground).
Maybe I'm missing the difference you must have pointed out?
Here you said:
Both theistic and atheistic approaches depend upon some external source of reality. This, you believe, puts us in the same boat, and renders all our claims about reality utterly subjective and completely equal in validity. I can understand this logic. That boat is the "external reality" boat (as opposed to the "subjective reality" boat).
If "all our claims about reality utterly subjective and completely equal in validity" then how is the boat the ""external reality" boat"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Blue Jay, posted 03-03-2008 6:18 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 03-04-2008 1:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 94 (459201)
03-04-2008 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Blue Jay
03-04-2008 1:38 PM


Re: All in the Same Boat
But, the stalemate only comes when everybody's wrong. If we're together in assuming an external, objective reality (even if it isn't objective or external), the one of us whose system of interpretation actually is objective and external is much more plausible (because subjectivity cannot have any bearing on an objective world).
But couldn't RealityTM be some combination of the objective and subjective? Does it have to be all or nothing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Blue Jay, posted 03-04-2008 1:38 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2008 5:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 51 by Blue Jay, posted 03-04-2008 10:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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