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Author Topic:   The World without Religion
graedek
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 112 (24088)
11-24-2002 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by forgiven
11-24-2002 3:53 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by forgiven:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
I don't think any atheist would say they could prove that God did not exist - he's a slippery customer by definition - I personally find the concept quite absurd. To be agnostic about it to me is like being agnostic about Santa Claus, the Jolly Green Giant or the Munchkins.
PE[/B][/QUOTE]
the only real problem here comes about when something like an actual debate takes place between an atheist and a theist... we've all seen, heard, or taken part in those... i think the theist is warranted in asking the atheist for proofs for her beliefs... see, if a person says "God does not exist" then that person is making a truth claim, the same as the person who says, "God exists"... an atheist making a truth claim should be held to the same standards the theist is held to...
this is why a lot of people have stopped saying they're atheist (in the strong sense from above)... they'd rather shift the burden of proof to the theist while not being forced to support their beliefs, their truth claims
[/B][/QUOTE]
I am therefore an 'agthiest'
I beleive in god and don't have to prove it
(thats what he told me to do so i listen)
------------------
*******sleeper********

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by forgiven, posted 11-24-2002 3:53 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by forgiven, posted 11-24-2002 7:23 PM graedek has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 32 of 112 (24095)
11-24-2002 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by robinrohan
11-24-2002 10:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
From a practical standpoint, to be agnostic is to act as though God did not exist. Atheism seems to me dogmatic. There is no proof that God does not exist. Of course, there's also none that he does. Agnosticism is not a "cop-out." It's the most reasonable position to take.
There is very little difference between my atheism and agnosticism. I do not claim that god doesn't exist, I simply don't have a belief in him/her/it/whatever.
This boils down to the strong/weak atheist positions where weak atheism and agnosticism are very similar, while strong atheism is the claim that god does not exist.
the "cop-out" comment was largely a responce to those that chose to label themselves agnostic rather than atheist to avoid the negative reactions that often result from being an atheist
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by robinrohan, posted 11-24-2002 10:49 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-24-2002 5:09 PM compmage has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 112 (24104)
11-24-2002 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by compmage
11-24-2002 4:39 PM


Wow i didn't realize atheists got a negative reaction. Maybe i've been on this site too much. lol I kind of figured athiesm was the common ideal held by most of north america. Well most of north america seems to be busy making money and could care less if God exists or not.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by compmage, posted 11-24-2002 4:39 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by compmage, posted 11-25-2002 1:24 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 112 (24117)
11-24-2002 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by graedek
11-24-2002 4:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by graedek:
I am therefore an 'agthiest'
I beleive in god and don't have to prove it
(thats what he told me to do so i listen)

i actually think that's the best way to go anyway... assume God needs no proof (presuppose him), which is in fact true, and approach it from the view that the atheist is borrowing from the christian worldview even while arguing for the non-existence of God
now, is the coffee done yet? *grin*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by graedek, posted 11-24-2002 4:23 PM graedek has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 112 (24125)
11-24-2002 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Primordial Egg
11-24-2002 2:30 PM


Primordial, there are all sorts of reasons for claiming that God exists:
1. What started the Big Bang?
2. Why do we have a conscience? (don't play the Freudian card--I forbid you).
3. Why through human history has every civilization believed in God?
4. How did matter create mind (my personal favorite)?
Answer these questions if you dare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-24-2002 2:30 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-25-2002 2:48 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 44 by forgiven, posted 11-25-2002 1:15 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 36 of 112 (24149)
11-25-2002 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by funkmasterfreaky
11-24-2002 5:09 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Wow i didn't realize atheists got a negative reaction. Maybe i've been on this site too much. lol I kind of figured athiesm was the common ideal held by most of north america. Well most of north america seems to be busy making money and could care less if God exists or not.

I remember reading somewhere that atheists are the most hated group in the States, gay people are more acceptable. I can't remember where I read this and I can't seem to find it again, anyone know where its from?
This matters little to me though since I'm not from north America.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-24-2002 5:09 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by John, posted 11-25-2002 8:44 AM compmage has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 112 (24153)
11-25-2002 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by robinrohan
11-24-2002 8:36 PM


quote:
Primordial, there are all sorts of reasons for claiming that God exists:
I don't doubt you, but are there any good ones?
Your questions below are (deliberately) challenging and provocative, although even if I were to answer "I don't know" to any of them (which is in fact a first approximation to what I will be doing), it still provides absolutely no justification for believing in God. The God of the Gaps fallacy creeps in to all sorts of places (many on this forum) without either protagonist even neccessarily being aware of it, so I want to be careful we avoid that. After all, I don't know who's going to win the next World Cup - it doesn't mean there's a God (are Gods).
That said, you could write volumes on the topics you raise (maybe I couldn't, but one could ). I'll keep my answers brief, tentative and subject to change, evidence permitting.
quote:
1. What started the Big Bang?
Don't know Nor, do I suspect does anyone else. See my thread on Cosmological Natural Selection to see how this universe has started for a suggestion.
See also Hawking's ideas that spacetime need not necessarily have had a beginning, in the same way that a sphere doesn't have a beginning (see also Julian Barbour's notions of time being an illusion as well).
Quantum fluctuations happen withoput cause and the singularity at the beginning did occupy zero volume and zero duration - so could it really have been said to exist? What is causality anyway? Does it require time?
What do YOU think started the Big Bang?
quote:
2. Why do we have a conscience? (don't play the Freudian card--I forbid you).
Why can chimps feel shame? (I'll look up the reference for this later) I suggest its due to the fact we're social animals and have certain inbuilt behaviours that even we don't completely understand yet. To better understand this question though, I need to determine that we can pin down what we mean by conscience or the question is nebulous.
quote:
3. Why through human history has every civilization believed in God?
Heh - this is a naughty one Why have most civilisations throughout history conducted human sacrifice?
My answer is still very tentative yet but is tied in to my answer to (2) - we have evolved certain behaviours (avoidance of incest is a good example) and sought to rationalise in the only way we knew how - invoking the supernatural.
i realise explanation above is far too glib and simplistic, but its a tremendously complicated question which takes in anthropology, neuroscience, sociology, politics and psychology. I'm reading a book on this at the minute, which I've promised Delshad I'll review for him - called "Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought" (when I say reading, I mean catching timy snippets of it on the train on my way to work):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/...aps_books_1_2/202-1234592-3935007
I PROMISE to post my thoughts on this book when I eventually finish it.
quote:
4. How did matter create mind (my personal favorite)?
I can tell it is and to be honest with you, its not a question I fully understand - why shouldn't qualia be produced by physical machanisms - are you suggesting that some hidden non-physical process is going on leading to qualia, or that since sensation is difficult to describe, God must exist? What about when certain areas of the brain are artificially stimulated to produce feelings of spiritual ecstasy? Talking of which, doesn't taking a recreational drug (matter) change your thinking (mind)? It doesn't seem at all implausible.
Not really sure where you're going with this.
Apologies, I haven't answered these questions in full as they're way too deep. The important thing to note is that I do not reject God as a potential solution to any of them, he simply carries the same weight as an explanation involving the Invisibe Pink Unicorn.
How do YOU answer your questions?
PE
------------------
It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains
fall out. - Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by robinrohan, posted 11-24-2002 8:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-25-2002 2:58 AM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 11-25-2002 5:19 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 112 (24154)
11-25-2002 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Primordial Egg
11-25-2002 2:48 AM


there was no big bang knowing God it was a little bang. lol. Athiesm is acceptable. But the easy way out always is. A gay atheist would be the most loved and most likely to get a job with no other reason than that they are gay and athiest. In north america if you are a gay atheistic minority you're laughing. Tolerance is the way, we must be tolerant to everything but christianity. And then say we're not singling out christianity. And don't give me some lie saying otherwise or ask me to back this up.. If you want proof peel the blind off of your eyes and look around. There is no World without religion you never had the choice. I personally hate religion. Religion= a set of guidlines to attain salvation. Garbage right from there. Religion is garbage Jesus Christ on the other hand is salvation so throw religion out the window.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 11-25-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-25-2002 2:48 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-25-2002 4:11 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 41 by John, posted 11-25-2002 9:02 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 112 (24162)
11-25-2002 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky
11-25-2002 2:58 AM


that wasn't a response to me was it?
PE
------------------
It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains
fall out. - Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-25-2002 2:58 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 112 (24193)
11-25-2002 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by compmage
11-25-2002 1:24 AM


quote:
Originally posted by compmage:
I remember reading somewhere that atheists are the most hated group in the States, gay people are more acceptable. I can't remember where I read this and I can't seem to find it again, anyone know where its from?
This matters little to me though since I'm not from north America.

Interesting... having lived in the US all my life, I am having trouble with the statement that atheists are the most hated group here. Most people I know don't understand but don't much care either.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by compmage, posted 11-25-2002 1:24 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by compmage, posted 11-25-2002 4:05 PM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 112 (24197)
11-25-2002 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky
11-25-2002 2:58 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
there was no big bang knowing God it was a little bang.
Are you aware of the irony of this statement?
quote:
Athiesm is acceptable.
Appreciate that.
quote:
But the easy way out always is.
The easy way out? You mean like a really old book told me so? Get a grip, Funkie. Religion is the ultimate easy out. You needn't think, just obey. And this is especially true of christianity, which flat out teaches believers not to question and compares them to sheep. Have you ever met a sheep? Sheep are STUPID. VERY VERY STUPID. I don't know why you guys are so proud of the association.
quote:
A gay atheist would be the most loved and most likely to get a job with no other reason than that they are gay and athiest.
Take a shot at it, Funkie. You'll find that you are full of crap.
quote:
In north america if you are a gay atheistic minority you're laughing.
You must be joking? Homosexuals get beaten a lot and sometimes killed and the laws of the country are so saturated with judeo-christianity that it blows the mind.
quote:
Tolerance is the way, we must be tolerant to everything but christianity.
Christianity gets more slack than it deserves, imho.
quote:
And then say we're not singling out christianity. And don't give me some lie saying otherwise or ask me to back this up..
I don't see any other religions in this country tying to get religion taught as science, nor do I see other religions pushing legislation that is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to generate a state religion.
quote:
If you want proof peel the blind off of your eyes and look around.
Try it yourself big guy.
quote:
There is no World without religion you never had the choice.
???????
quote:
I personally hate religion.
Good.
quote:
Religion= a set of guidlines to attain salvation. Garbage right from there.
I love to see this argument. You've just undercut your entire faith. So we can toss out all those irritating rules in the OT? And those guidelines in the NT? And that believe-in-jesus-to-get-to-heaven rule? Cool. Anarchy!!!!!!
quote:
Religion is garbage Jesus Christ on the other hand is salvation so throw religion out the window.
I really really very much want to see you work this out into something practical.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-25-2002 2:58 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-25-2002 12:11 PM John has not replied
 Message 43 by joz, posted 11-25-2002 1:01 PM John has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 112 (24225)
11-25-2002 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by John
11-25-2002 9:02 AM


Another foolish spontanious post on my part. The one good thing in that was the religion=rules. I really don't believe throwing religion it the window ruins my standpoint. I don't believe in following a set of rules to attain salvation. Because i love Jesus and because he saved me i attempt to follow the guidlines laid forth in the N.T. If someone pulled out of a river when i was drowning i'd be grateful. If they made me follow a set of rules in order to get saved i would probably end up drowning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by John, posted 11-25-2002 9:02 AM John has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 112 (24235)
11-25-2002 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by John
11-25-2002 9:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
a)...And this is especially true of christianity, which flat out teaches believers not to question and compares them to sheep. Have you ever met a sheep? Sheep are STUPID. VERY VERY STUPID. I don't know why you guys are so proud of the association.
b)
quote:
Tolerance is the way, we must be tolerant to everything but christianity.
Christianity gets more slack than it deserves, imho.

a)ROTFLMFAO That is almost as good as Marks Galactic Goat....
b)Its always been puzzling to me when the worlds largest religion have persecution complexes.......
Anyone else think they are having difficulty adapting to a world where they haven`t been thrown to the lions in over a millenium?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by John, posted 11-25-2002 9:02 AM John has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 112 (24240)
11-25-2002 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by robinrohan
11-24-2002 8:36 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by robinrohan:
[B]Primordial, there are all sorts of reasons for claiming that God exists:
1. What started the Big Bang?[/QUOTE]
didn't you know, haven't you heard? it's an effect without a cause
quote:
2. Why do we have a conscience? (don't play the Freudian card--I forbid you).
darn, no freud... you mean i can't say 'cause of guilt feelings over incestful thoughts? sigh... how bout forever jung?
quote:
3. Why through human history has every civilization believed in God?
to justify actions?
quote:
4. How did matter create mind (my personal favorite)?
well you see, some protein in a primordial mix of nutrients/chemicals kinda joined with some other protein and enzymes and stuff were formed and then to control appearance and behavior dna molecules came about and then it happened again and over time (lots and lots and LOTS of time) all the different mammals and reptiles and amphibians and insects emerged... i think some of them may have crossbred or something but i'm not sure 'bout that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by robinrohan, posted 11-24-2002 8:36 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 45 of 112 (24269)
11-25-2002 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by John
11-25-2002 8:44 AM


quote:
Originally posted by John:

Interesting... having lived in the US all my life, I am having trouble with the statement that atheists are the most hated group here. Most people I know don't understand but don't much care either.

I have not been able to find where I read this and as such have no idea how accurate it is. I have also never even been to the US, never mind lived there long enough to have some personal experiance to draw on.
One thing I am fairly certain of is that most people don't care what my beliefs (or lack thereof) are when it comes to god. The same can be said for my sexual preference or political views. Most people simply don't care but it takes only a view to make things difficult.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by John, posted 11-25-2002 8:44 AM John has not replied

  
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