The World without Religion

Yeah and if there were people all day with a dog attempting to tain it to sign and make scribbles on paper I'm sure a dog is capable of the same.------------------
saved by grace

John, my example about drawing pictures was meant to indicate a crucial difference between dogs and humans. Drawing pictures is an indication of the ability to abstract--in other words, to think symbolically. The picture is a symbol of the reality. This is a characteristic of human thought. If you point your finger at something you want your dog to pay attention to, the dog will sniff your finger, not follow the symbolic line of the pointed finger. For a dog, a finger is a finger, not a pointer.The ability to think symbolically is an indication of the ability to abstract (in fact,it's the same thing). I would also maintain that the ability to abstract is an indication of consciousness.

quote:

---

Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Yeah and if there were people all day with a dog attempting to tain it to sign and make scribbles on paper I'm sure a dog is capable of the same.

​

---

I am assuming that you are talking about the chimps drawing. I actually don't think that dogs are capable of the same things that chimps do on a daily basis. Apes in general, and chimps in particular, do some amazing things. They are more like us than most people imagine, or us like them.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by robinrohan:
John, my example about drawing pictures was meant to indicate a crucial difference between dogs and humans. Drawing pictures is an indication of the ability to abstract--in other words, to think symbolically.

---

I think what you've got is an extreme and specialized example of symbolic thinking, but what you don't have is evidence that there is a sharp break or cognitive leap. Animals of any complexity couldn't function without some form of abstract thought, symbolic thought. At the very basic level, the association of a sound with a type of predator is symbolic thought. Even such things as vision or echolocation is a form of abstraction.

quote:

---

If you point your finger at something you want your dog to pay attention to, the dog will sniff your finger, not follow the symbolic line of the pointed finger. For a dog, a finger is a finger, not a pointer.

---

Dogs aren't capable of the particular abstraction you describe. At least, I can't think of a contradictory observation. It doesn't follow that they are incapable of any symbolic thought.

quote:

---

The ability to think symbolically is an indication of the ability to abstract (in fact,it's the same thing). I would also maintain that the ability to abstract is an indication of consciousness.

---

Ok. But I don't agree that the ability to abstract equals the ability to abstract AS HUMANS DO. Its a continuum and we sit at one end of it relative to the other critters on earth.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Hmmm, once again I think it's a question of interpretation. I would argue that we haven't "evolved" spacesuits. A spacesuit would be an example of humans modifying the local environment (the vacuum of space) to suit them - in this case, by carrying a bit of the environment we evolved in to a hostile environment. You will note that humans live quite successfully in the deepest desert and the arctic wastes - yet have not substantially "evolved" in a biological sense. It is our technology (whether an ability to make warm clothes or the techniques to cultivate oases and an ability to travel from one to the other) that allows us to live in those environments. We very much create our own niches - more than any other critter in the history of life. In that sense, I agree with you that technology is truly the defining characteristic of our species. But again, it's a matter of degree, not "kind".

Hi John,I agree with you - I can ALWAYS tell when my girl does something she shouldn't have. However, I would argue that these are conditioned behaviors (you'll note the submissive posture, etc, which are standard doggy responses to dominance issues in the wild). The same goes for her repeating behaviors that will garner praise or treats. It's probably a pretty subtle distinction (or a matter of degree) between an instinctive "understanding" of her place in a pack hierarchy and an "understanding" in a cognitive sense of "her" as an individual with a unique identity as we use the term. As to the mirror bit - my guess would be that a dog would ultimately get used to seeing another "dog" that had no scent and never did anything - and simply ignore it since it has no bearing on her survival or environment. I.e., did not compute in the (relatively) limited suite of behaviors she has.

quote:

---

Quetzal, if dogs are not self-aware and chimps are, does that not suggest a sudden break rather than a continuum? Do chimps draw pictures?

---

No, it doesn't. Where you definitely see the continuum is in the gradation of cognitive ability among primates - from humans at one end to the smaller, more basal primates at the other. To my knowledge, there hasn't been a complete cross-species study done on all primates, but individual studies on specific species provide a fair amount of evidence. And yes, chimps draw pictures - some of them marginally recognizable - most of which are quite abstract (sort of like the drawings done by two year old humans...).

I'm just wondering what partial self-awareness would consist of. It seems to me that you are either aware of yourself or you are not.

quote:

---

Originally posted by robinrohan:
I'm just wondering what partial self-awareness would consist of. It seems to me that you are either aware of yourself or you are not.

---

Well, drink enough and I think it is fair to say that you are at best only partially self-aware. If such a state can be induced, I don't see why it couldn't exist as a natural condition in some species.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Weeel, we’re now approaching the limits of my knowledge base. I would say, in response, that self-identification (i.e., the self as a distinct cognitive entity or mental representation) is different than self-awareness (a sense of spatial and/or temporal location). Here’s an excellent article on self-recognition in primates, Self-recognition in primates: salience and phylogeny of species-typical behaviors, showing that with proper experimental design, other primates can be shown to have a sense of self. Here’s another interesting article, Animals know more than we used to think which discusses state of the art in animal cognition research. Finally, sort of off the subject of self-recognition, but interesting from the standpoint of those who claim animals can’t think, I liked this article Low-status monkeys ‘‘play dumb’’ when learning in mixed social groups. The article not only points out differences in behavior, but also shows the genesis of deceptive behavior. (Most likely, subordinates adjusted their behavior, under changing social conditions, to minimize potential retaliation from dominant animals for transgressing social rules.)It’s all a matter of degree

quote:

---

Originally posted by robinrohan:
I'm just wondering what partial self-awareness would consist of. It seems to me that you are either aware of yourself or you are not.

---

Human babies aren't self aware, so at some point they cross a threshold & become self aware, surely? Zap, just like that!Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

quote:

---

I am assuming that you are talking about the chimps drawing. I actually don't think that dogs are capable of the same things that chimps do on a daily basis. Apes in general, and chimps in particular, do some amazing things. They are more like us than most people imagine, or us like them.

---

Hee. I didn't see this before. Well done, John! I've long maintained that, given the genetic closeness of our nearest cousins, there's no justification for proclaiming them a separate genus. It should either be Homo troglydites or maybe Pan sapiens. Wouldn't that send the creationists into screaming fits.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzal:
Hee. I didn't see this before. Well done, John! I've long maintained that, given the genetic closeness of our nearest cousins, there's no justification for proclaiming them a separate genus. It should either be Homo troglydites or maybe Pan sapiens. Wouldn't that send the creationists into screaming fits.

---

Yeah. I think it is more human psychology than hard evidence that prevents what you suggest from being widely considered. Though it has been considered. A primatology professor mentioned something similar when I was in school ten years ago.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

t.[/b][/QUOTE]Human babies aren't self aware, so at some point they cross a threshold & become self aware, surely? Zap, just like that!Mark[/B][/QUOTE]Yes, I think the develop of consciousness in babies is sudden. We don't remember anything that happened to us before age 3 or so and the reason is possibly that we are unconscious. Once consciousness sets in, so does memory. My earliest memory is of a fire--our house burned down. I was 3 years old. I have another memory, not too long thereafter, of sitting on a porch in somebody's lap with a heavily bandaged leg (the scar is there today). From my own experience, this leads me to suggest tentatively that perhaps it takes a traumatic event to spring us into consciousness. I think that would be a good "study" for someone to undertake. Of course, sometimes we are mistaken about our memories, but I'm pretty sure about these.

quote:

---

Originally posted by robinrohan:
Yes, I think the develop of consciousness in babies is sudden. We don't remember anything that happened to us before age 3 or so and the reason is possibly that we are unconscious.

---

I have virtually no memories before the age of maybe ten. I have fragments of memory. Don't get me wrong. Was I unconscious that most of those years?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com