Here be my problem with "God"

So your saying the even if I am honest, nice, caring, and compassionate and even if I save a baby from a burning house I'm still going to hell with 0% chance of redemption if I don't say that jesus is my lord........So basically a serial rapist/murder can get into heaven as long as he seeks forgiveness from jesus. But, an atheist will go to hell even if he never did any wrong to his fellow man.And the god that would do this is supposed to be just and compassionate....

You are not saved by deeds Rand. Christ died for all man's sins, not just stealing and gossiping. If a man murders or rapes he does not have Christ in him, thus he wouldn't go to heaven. If however he murdered or raped and for some reason afterwards came to repent his sins and find Christ, then YES He could still go to heaven. Find me a man that does not sin. God is indeed just and compassionate. He died for our sins. Show me a man that would give his life for the very people that are torturing him.

But you are, apparently, dammned by them. That seems a little inconsistent to me. I'm one. Out of curiosity, how would you tell the difference between such a man and one who just dies because they're torturing him?

Oh, so you must not be a Christian but instead a Paulist. No surprise, really, though it has always confused me why people who call themselves Christian adhere so strongly to the words of a man who had never even met Christ.I believe it is in Matthew 25 where Jesus describes the necessary and sufficient conditions for entering heaven - and He never mentions faith or grace. He says that one will be counted amongst the sheep if he has fed the hungry, visited the sick, clothed the naked, etc... and a person without those good works will be counted amongst the goats, instructed to depart from Him into the eternal fire.Sounds pretty much like His decision is based on one's deeds, else why wouldn't he have mentioned faith? Here I am!

Zealot"Find me a man that does not sin." Would Lot qualify?

Every man sins. I thought that part was obvious. If you say you haven't then you have just committed another sin.Deeds go hand in hand with being saved, being saved alone doesn't get you there and just doing good deeds does not either. Actions speak louder than words.PEACE BE WITH YOU
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-chris[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 11-26-2003]

So it is true, you can do whatever you want as long as you repent afterwards. Geez, if only the American justice system worked the same way.But you also say... Doesn't this contradict what you just said? If he doesn't have Christ in him, then how could he repent? Or can he receive Christ's love afterwards? Then why are you punished for them?

messenjaH writes:

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just doing good deeds does not either. Actions speak louder than words.

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You do realize that the latter statement directly contradicts the former, yes?Actions speak louder than words which means that good deeds does it.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Not alone.------------------
-chris

He could be enlightened.You aren't punished by deeds, you are punished if you do not know Jesus. If you know Jesus then doing good deeds is a task that is willingly done.------------------
-chris

messenjaH responds to me:

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Not alone.

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Then we're back to the original question:Suppose there is somebody that has been heinous throughout his entire life but has a revelation just before he dies and never has a chance to do a single good deed.What happens to him?And how does one justify that treatment to someone who has been angelic all his life but for whatever reason never accepts Jesus?What happens to him?It would seem you are saying that neither of these people get to heaven as what is required is both doing good deeds and accepting Jesus. Is that what you're saying?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

You answered your own question.A man who accepts Christ at his dying hour goes to heaven. For by the grace of Jesus you are saved, but true christians try to be like Christ, hence christian meaning "little christ", so their actions would show their beliefs.My point is you can't say "oh, I'm going to heaven I got saved as a child" and then lead a sinful life for then one would doubt and I would wonder if you are a christian.Some believe that if a man accepts Jesus as a young child then denies him as an adult, perhaps becomes atheist then he would still enter the kingdom of God. I'm not too sure if that works.Works and being saved work hand in hand but by being saved is MORE.It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do if you trust in Jesus Christ as your savior. But if you do none then you obviously aren't true.Despite your fallacy this is logical. Be humble, let your actions proclaim your faith, and of course have that faith.I believe actions show what you believe, but you must speak words also.*Different meaning of the word work(s).Side note: I don't have all the answersPEACE BE WITH YOU------------------
-chris

I wonder if I could re-ask a question that I brought up elsewhere. The story of christ goes this way.he dies for our sins on the cross.Exactly what does this mean? Does he take the sin upon himself and somehow serve your time in hell for you? Does the bible state specifically what happens to Jesus that repays all the sins of rape,murder,torture,adultery,incest,etc.?

Edit to remove[This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-29-2003]

messenjaH responds to me:

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You answered your own question.

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But my answer was that people who are heinous and make a deathbed conversion don't get to heaven. That's the only way to be fair to those who are angelic but for whatever reason don't believe in Jesus.And yet, you said the following:

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A man who accepts Christ at his dying hour goes to heaven.

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So which is it?If a person is heinous but at the last second repents, he gets to go to heaven? How is that fair to someone who does everything right but for whatever reason doesn't accept Jesus? There are people, after all, who have never heard of Jesus. Why do they get sent to hell?

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Some believe that if a man accepts Jesus as a young child then denies him as an adult, perhaps becomes atheist then he would still enter the kingdom of God. I'm not too sure if that works.

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Logical error: Strawman.Nobody is talking about having a conversion and then going off and doing horrible things. We're talking about doing horrible things and then having a conversion that happens before one has a chance to make restitution or do anything else, really.If you have your revelation and then die, what happens? And how is that fair to someone who does everything right but never has the revelation?

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It doesn't matter how many good deeds you do if you trust in Jesus Christ as your savior. But if you do none then you obviously aren't true.

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Weren't you pounding into the ground the claim that "nobody is perfect" in the thread about the "ultimate gift"?

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*Different meaning of the word work(s).

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Ah, so you're equivocating. Another logical error, I'm afraid.

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Side note: I don't have all the answers

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But what makes you think you have this answer?And if you don't, why are you acting as if you do? Isn't bearing false witness a sin?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!