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Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 76 of 133 (426129)
10-05-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2007 10:57 AM


I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind. Its something that you consciously are.

possibly. but, to be a christian in one's own mind doesn't necessarily require being a christian in *your* mind. if someone doesn't think jesus was god, but thinks he's really cool and tries to live like him and thinks he's a christian, he's every right, despite what you or your friends may say.

I think that sets the bar too low. With this standard, someone could be a Christian and not even know it. I think you should know that you are a Christian.

i disagree. when people ask about "the primitive in africa," christians often say that the "primitives" may be worshiping their god and it happens to be the right one even if they haven't heard about jesus. they do the right things and they like the right idea of god and may thus be "saved" because of their faith. as such, if only christians can be saved, these people must be christians without knowing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 10:57 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 12:42 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 77 of 133 (426133)
10-05-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2007 10:57 AM


Christian Scientist writes:

I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind.

Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.

For example, Ghandi was Christ-like. Acording to your standard, he would have been a Christian but in reality he was a Hindu and not a Christian.

You said yourself that it's possible to be a Hindu and a Christian.

By their fruits ye shall know them. I have no trouble at all recognizing Gandhi as christian.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 10:57 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 10-05-2007 12:12 PM ringo has responded
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 12:47 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30701
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 133 (426137)
10-05-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:03 PM


Saved, not Christian
Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.

The point is, many non-Christians will be saved while many Christians will be damned.

But salvation is a different issue that club membership.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:27 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 79 of 133 (426144)
10-05-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
10-05-2007 12:12 PM


Re: Saved, not Christian
jar writes:

But salvation is a different issue that club membership.

Which is why I tried to make the distinction a while back between Christian and christian.

If the only question is, "Who's a member of the club?", then those of you who have membership cards can hold them up and the topic is over.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 10-05-2007 12:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 10-05-2007 12:32 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30701
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 80 of 133 (426147)
10-05-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:27 PM


Re: Saved, not Christian
I agree with that distinction.

They are different. A very large number of Christians just don't seem to understand what Jesus message was, and so even though they are Christians, club members, don't seem to follow his teachings, while lots of folk who are not in the club, do follow Jesus teachings.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:44 PM jar has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 133 (426151)
10-05-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by macaroniandcheese
10-05-2007 11:44 AM


but, to be a christian in one's own mind doesn't necessarily require being a christian in *your* mind.

The point was the people that don't consider themselves to be Christian, shouldn't be considered Christian by someone else just because they are like Christ. If you don't consider yourself a Christian, then you're not.

if someone doesn't think jesus was god, but thinks he's really cool and tries to live like him and thinks he's a christian, he's every right, despite what you or your friends may say.

That's been covered.

quote:
From Message 72

Me writes:

I guess it is possible for someone to believe that Jesus was not divine, and just had a good philosphy that is worth following, and still be rightfully considered a Christian.


if only christians can be saved

False premise.

But if that was a true premise, then you would be correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 11:44 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 82 of 133 (426152)
10-05-2007 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
10-05-2007 12:32 PM


Re: Saved, not Christian
jar writes:

A very large number of Christians just don't seem to understand what Jesus message was, and so even though they are Christians, club members, don't seem to follow his teachings, while lots of folk who are not in the club, do follow Jesus teachings.

God is the International President of the club and Jesus is the Chairman of the membership committee. He is the ultimate arbiter of who is a member and who is not.

Some will come to the convention with counterfeit membership cards and they will be barred, even though their chapters told them they were members in good standing.

Even more surprizing is when the membership committee goes out and brings in people off the street who didn't even know they were members.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 10-05-2007 12:32 PM jar has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 133 (426153)
10-05-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:03 PM


Christian Scientist writes:

I think that in order to be considered a Christian, you have to be a Christian in your own mind.


Jesus disagreed with you. He said that many who think they were in on the ground floor by saying, "Lord! Lord!", will not be accepted - and many that don't expect to be accepted will be.

Like jar said, Jesus was talking about who would be saved, not who should be considered a Christian.

By their fruits ye shall know them. I have no trouble at all recognizing Gandhi as christian.

The reason I have trouble recognizing Gandhi as Christian is because he wasn't one. Oh wait, is that a little "c" on purpose?

If you define christian (little "c") as simply "like-Christ", then yeah, Gandhi was christian.

But Christian (big "C"), as in a member of the Christian community, then no, Gandhi wasn't a Christian.

My point about the Chrstian (big "C) label was that simply being a member of the community is not enought to be a True Christian. You should actually believe the stuff too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 84 of 133 (426154)
10-05-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2007 12:42 PM


False premise.

i quite agree, but others don't.

But if that was a true premise, then you would be correct.

hurrah. so it would seem that the definition under that premise would be "whoever is saved" which we won't actually know until after the end of the world, since if christians who don't know they are might be included and only god will know who, then one would assume that it would be a terrible idea to presume to state who is and isn't a christian, no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 12:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 2:20 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 85 of 133 (426156)
10-05-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2007 12:47 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Like jar said, Jesus was talking about who would be saved, not who should be considered a Christian.

Like I said, Jesus' consideration is the only one that counts.

If you define christian (little "c") as simply "like-Christ", then yeah, Gandhi was christian.

But Christian (big "C"), as in a member of the Christian community, then no, Gandhi wasn't a Christian.

On the contrary, Gandhi was more a member of the real Christian community than Hovind or Falwell or Robertson.

My point about the Chrstian (big "C) label was that simply being a member of the community is not enought to be a True Christian. You should actually believe the stuff too.

But the question is "Who IS a Christian?", not "Who's labelled as a Christian?"

My point is that it's more correct to call a christian "Christian" than to call a non-christian "Christian".


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 2:30 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 133 (426169)
10-05-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by macaroniandcheese
10-05-2007 12:48 PM


then one would assume that it would be a terrible idea to presume to state who is and isn't a christian, no?

I think the idea becomes acceptable when someone says: "I am a Christian, but yadda-yadda-yadda."

Where yadda-yadda-yadda is something that makes someone not a Christian.

For example, I am a Christian but I don't think we should love our enemies. Or, whatever, the specific doesn't matter for my point.

The point is that there is some criteria that must be fit to rightfully be considered a Christian by others. Its possible for someone to claim Christianity but have beliefs or behaviors that make them non-Christian, IMHO.

For others to call them out on it and say that they are, in fact, not a Christian is not necessarily a terrible thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 12:48 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1785 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 87 of 133 (426171)
10-05-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2007 2:20 PM


The point is that there is some criteria that must be fit to rightfully be considered a Christian by others. Its possible for someone to claim Christianity but have beliefs or behaviors that make them non-Christian, IMHO.

and now we're right back where we started.

For example, I am a Christian but I don't think we should love our enemies. Or, whatever, the specific doesn't matter for my point.

i think it does matter. does not loving our enemies, or thinking gays should be allowed to marry make you less of a christian? how about thinking jesus probably was married, or that having sex before marriagedoesn't make me a bad person? how about thinking i should bomb abortion clinics, or that i should kill fags? how about thinking that satan has power of his own, or thinking that such an idea amounts to polytheism?

it seems to me that we're not wise enough to make these distinctions, since we tend to make the wrong ones. i think we should leave the saving up to god.

For others to call them out on it and say that they are, in fact, not a Christian is not necessarily a terrible thing.

i think it's the worst thing we can do. we're supposed to love our neighbors, our enemies, and everyone in between. loving people doesn't include making presumptions about their status with god. it's really not anyone's business.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 3:02 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 133 (426172)
10-05-2007 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
10-05-2007 12:58 PM


Like I said, Jesus' consideration is the only one that counts.

Well sure, but we're talking about who we consider to be Christians, regardless of if it actually counts.

Gandhi was more a member of the real Christian community than Hovind or Falwell or Robertson.

I think we're just talking about different things when we type "C(c)hristian".

But the question is "Who IS a Christian?", not "Who's labelled as a Christian?"

I think that in the context of the OP, those are the same question. Maybe I've misunderstood the OP, but from this quote:

quote:
Jar is not a Christian. Never has been (but hopefully will be). From Rays perspective (and mine) Jar is a 5th Columnist - and could expect to be (as per type) particularly reviled by those who recognize him for what he is.

it seems to be more concerned with whether on not the label is applicable (because of the persons beliefs or actions), not whether or not the person will actually be with Christ.

Well, actually, now that I think about it and reread it, it could be talking about the exact opposite of what I think its trying to say.

So now I'm confused.

My point is that it's more correct to call a christian "Christian" than to call a non-christian "Christian".

Yeah but I still don't think we should be calling Gandhi a Christian. He was a Hindu. Even if he was more of a christian than many Christians, we shouldn't call him a Christian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 12:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 10-05-2007 2:49 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14905
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 89 of 133 (426176)
10-05-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2007 2:30 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

... we're talking about who we consider to be Christians, regardless of if it actually counts.

No we're not. I'll remind you again of the OP:

quote:
In this topic, I wish to discuss the attributes of what makes a Christian a Christian. Message 1

The topic is what makes a Christian a Chriatian, not who "we" consider to be a Christian.

... it seems to be more concerned with whether on not the label is applicable (because of the persons beliefs or actions), not whether or not the person will actually be with Christ.

It seems just the opposite to me. :) The example clearly shows that Ray and iano have the wrong way to tell what a Christian is.

By their fruit ye shall know them.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 2:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2007 3:08 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 133 (426179)
10-05-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by macaroniandcheese
10-05-2007 2:29 PM


i think it does matter. does not loving our enemies, or thinking gays should be allowed to marry make you less of a christian? how about thinking jesus probably was married, or that having sex before marriagedoesn't make me a bad person? how about thinking i should bomb abortion clinics, or that i should kill fags? how about thinking that satan has power of his own, or thinking that such an idea amounts to polytheism?

You'll find Christians that accept or reject any combination of those. But they could still be considered Christians.

Still though, there's some minimum requirements for who we should consider Christians.

Certainly, being a follower of Christ is one of them. Maybe the only one?

it seems to me that we're not wise enough to make these distinctions, since we tend to make the wrong ones. i think we should leave the saving up to god.

I'm not talking about the saving. I'm just talking about the label.

For others to call them out on it and say that they are, in fact, not a Christian is not necessarily a terrible thing.

i think it's the worst thing we can do. we're supposed to love our neighbors, our enemies, and everyone in between. loving people doesn't include making presumptions about their status with god. it's really not anyone's business.

Again, I'm not judging their status with God. I'm trying to find the criteria for who we, as Christians, should consider others as Christians or not.

I don't think the criteria can be just being like Christ, because that would include non-Christians like Gandhi who is a Hindu and not a Christian but happens to be like Christ.

I don't think the criteria can be just being a member of a Christian community, because a non-Christian (like a double-agent or something) could easily become a member while not be a Christian.

You see what I'm getting at?

What do you think the criteria should be?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 2:29 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-05-2007 3:16 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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