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Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
iano
Member (Idle past 1105 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 106 of 133 (426238)
10-05-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Cold Foreign Object
10-05-2007 6:00 PM


Re: Phat & Jar: how we explain their "Christianity"
Ray writes:

I never said any person (much less Jar) was beyond redemption. What I did say was to explain how Jar could think of himself as a Christian while arguing against the Bible like any given Atheist might do.

Which is why I used the word 'imply'. It implied a sense of uncertainty on my part and I am glad you clarified. Sometimes in the heat we can sound absolutist without meaning to.

Jar is not a Christian - we seem to be agreed that he is a 5th columnist - whereas the average Joe here is 'simply' lost. I think many of the brethern have tried to wiggle their way around Jar and have found themselves throwing Jello at a wall (*Jello slithers down walls*)

As for Phat... The Bible says if the secular world approves of you or the religious status quo then you are walking with Satan.

Yes it does. But I reckon this to lay on the non-essential side of the essential divide. I know what you mean re: Phat's oil-on-(any and all) troubled-water-attitude. But I also know of those who are in the faith other than I am in the faith.

I am aware that in the measure I am "strong and uncompromising" others are "weak and lily-livered". I imagine only Jesus walked the perfect line between the two.

You know that too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-05-2007 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2007 8:13 PM iano has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 107 of 133 (426257)
10-05-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by iano
10-05-2007 6:19 PM


Re: Phat & Jar: how we explain their "Christianity"
Iano writes:

Jar is not a Christian - we seem to be agreed that he is a 5th columnist - whereas the average Joe here is 'simply' lost. I think many of the brethern have tried to wiggle their way around Jar and have found themselves throwing Jello at a wall (*Jello slithers down walls*)

I find it interesting how I have discussed the meaning of Christianity with jar in chat for several dozen hours. I find his belief that God made the ultimate sacrifice by becoming human in the form of Christ far more admirable and perhaps even plausible, than any other explanation. I also believe that people like jar and Ringo want to make people think about their beliefs as opposed to any demand that all must unquestioningly follow anyone who claims personal infalliblity.

In other words, perhaps if you actually sought to understand how jar thinks you would ask as opposed to claim perfect knowledge of his heart and condemn him without any desire to understand. Perhaps you may then stand on firmer ground in regard to your opinions concerning his religious beliefs.

As to Phat, whom I have also discussed Christianity with for many hours on chat, I find his almost childlike faith in God to be quite charming if not as comprehensively and ruthlessly self examined as jar's. Plus, just because Phat appears to have an agreeable and pleasant personality, is that grounds to dismiss the nature of his personal relationship with God?

Iano, from what little I can know of you from your posts, with all the self-righteous judgment of others, all I can say is I hope you come off as more likeable in person. I am not impressed by any individual theology that begins with 'my way, or the highway' or 'how dare you question ME.'

The Baptists around here make a big deal about the question "What would Jesus do?" From what I understand, Jar has helped build churches and is currently creating websites for several for free. Phat is currently volunteering his time counseling troubled youth in prison.

My question to you Iano is, considering how much you appear to negatively judge others as to the quality of their actions in regard to Christianity, what have you done lately?

That is, other than condemn any and all that don't toe to your ideological line and then self-righteously appear to state that you are speaking for God.

Edited by anglagard, : Emphasize Phat is volunteering his time for free


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by iano, posted 10-05-2007 6:19 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 10-05-2007 9:29 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 1105 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 108 of 133 (426273)
10-05-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by anglagard
10-05-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Phat & Jar: how we explain their "Christianity"
AG writes:

I find it interesting how I have discussed the meaning of Christianity with jar in chat for several dozen hours. I find his belief that God made the ultimate sacrifice by becoming human in the form of Christ far more admirable and perhaps even plausible, than any other explanation. I also believe that people like Jar and Ringo want to make people think about their beliefs as opposed to any demand that all must unquestioningly follow anyone who claims personal infalliblity.

I don't claim personal infallibility (apparently the Pope does). Rather, I proclaim myself to tell (as best I know how) the truth. Perhaps Jar and Ringo also proclaim. Assuming they get to claim as well as me: you get to chose who 'most' represents the truth.

Lets not forego YOUR choice in all this. In retrospect it's key.

In other words, perhaps if you actually sought to understand how jar thinks you would ask as opposed to claim perfect knowledge of his heart and condemn him without any desire to understand. Perhaps you may then stand on firmer ground in regard to your opinions concerning his religious beliefs.

Different subject and level. When it comes to Jar the conclusion is obvious. Not to you perhaps. But then again you are lost so there is a worldly excuse for you not seeing it.

Your major presupposition is that all float in the same boat as you. But we don't. That should not be taken as meaning "better than you" or "more advanced than you". Far from it. You could as well end up "greater" than me in the Kingdom of Heaven..as not. That I have been 7 years a Christian and you could, in 3 years time, end up a Christian counts for (delightfully)... nought.

As to Phat, whom I have also discussed Christianity with for many hours on chat, I find his almost childlike faith in God to be quite charming if not as comprehensively and ruthlessly self examined as jar's. Plus, just because Phat appears to have an agreeable and pleasant personality, is that grounds to dismiss the nature of his personal relationship with God?

The grounds are not the nature of the relationship. The grounds are the basis on which it is formed. Phat is borderline in my own opinion. He is so in bed with God's declared enemies it becomes problematic as to which side he is fighting on. An apprentice to Jar-think. Or a Christian. One day all will find out.

, from what little I can know of you from your posts, with all the self-righteous judgment of others, all I can say is I hope you come off as more likeable in person. I am not impressed by any individual theology that begins with 'my way, or the highway' or 'how dare you question ME.'

Question away...

Baptists around here make a big deal about the question "What would Jesus do?" From what I understand, Jar has helped build churches and is currently creating websites for several for free. Phat is currently volunteering his time counseling troubled youth in prison.

Great!! God help them should they consider their work to have a thing to do with entrance to heaven. I know that Jar thinks so ("I'm trying a stairway to heaven"). Phat? Dunno.

My question to you Iano is, considering how much you appear to negatively judge others as to the quality of their actions in regard to Christianity, what have you done lately?

Nothing of note. Thank God salvation is by faith and not by works

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2007 8:13 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Vacate, posted 10-06-2007 7:05 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 113 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-06-2007 1:12 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 109 of 133 (426337)
10-06-2007 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
10-05-2007 5:03 PM


Re: Phat & Jar: how we explain their "Christianity"
The way I see it Phat? My girl has a '96 Ford Fiesta parked outside her house which is having its brake discs replaced tomorrow. Without error is it? No! Does it fulfill all its essential functions (and more) despite this? Yes.

But the car doesn't have an error.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 10-05-2007 5:03 PM iano has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 110 of 133 (426338)
10-06-2007 5:43 AM


Got to let you guys know..
I really need to thank the 'Christians' posting on this thread.

This thread is an atheists dream!

Crazy Christians cannot even agree on what a Christian is, which proves what a pile of junk it is.

Do yourselves a favour, come live in the 21st century with the normal folk and stop wasting your lives away on this fairytale.

Life is short enough without worrying about what's going to happen when you die.


Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-06-2007 1:00 PM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 114 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:30 PM Brian has responded

    
Vacate
Member (Idle past 2523 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 111 of 133 (426344)
10-06-2007 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
10-05-2007 9:29 PM


Jar and faith
Great!! God help them should they consider their work to have a thing to do with entrance to heaven.

You make God sound so welcoming.

Nothing of note. Thank God salvation is by faith and not by works

So entrance is not granted because of any good works or bad works but simply with faith. How is it you can declare Jar a 5th columnist then if faith is the only thing that can be judged. Hes got faith, he even says so. You are not judging him simply on his works are you? (building churches and rejecting fundementalism)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 10-05-2007 9:29 PM iano has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 112 of 133 (426387)
10-06-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Brian
10-06-2007 5:43 AM


Re: Got to let you guys know..
some of us aren't worried about what will happen when we die.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Brian, posted 10-06-2007 5:43 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 113 of 133 (426388)
10-06-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
10-05-2007 9:29 PM


Re: Phat & Jar: how we explain their "Christianity"
Thank God salvation is by faith and not by works

faith without works is dead.

i refuse to make any assumptions about you or anyone else, but if my biggest work was spending time yelling about who i thought clearly couldn't be saved because of some notion i had about what being a christian is, i would be worried about the state of my heart. if the capacities i possess are doubt, accusation, judgment, anger, name-calling, hatred, fear, self-righteousness, and war-mongering instead of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, i would be very concerned.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 10-05-2007 9:29 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 970 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 114 of 133 (426419)
10-06-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Brian
10-06-2007 5:43 AM


Re: Got to let you guys know..
Crazy Christians cannot even agree on what a Christian is, which proves what a pile of junk it is.

False.

I have defined Christian the way the Bible defines it. First, we remove the word "Christian" and replace it with "persons who are in God's will," which is synonymous. The Bible is crystal clear in this respect: persons in God's will are those that are persecuted and rejected by the secular AND religious establisment. This is a full-proof criteria: every person in God's will IN the Bible is persecuted by secular and religious establishments; therefore, if you are a Christian, and you are accepted by these entities and loved and not persecuted and rejected then your Christianity is counterfeit.

Both Jar and Phat, by these criteria, are not real Christians. Both are accepted by the Atheist-evolutionist status quo here at EvC.

While Buzsaw is a Moderator, he is the object of angry invective by all Mods and Admins and Directors. Faith is banned. Of course I am the devil incarnate.

Life is short enough without worrying about what's going to happen when you die.

Truth derived from the Bible says persons who have concern about going to hell are probably not, and those who have no concern whatsover probably are.

Brian: the hand of Christ via the gospel (= way of faith apart from the works of the code of conduct known as the law) is available to you. Seize Christ by faith and wait on Him in that state, is my advice.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Brian, posted 10-06-2007 5:43 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Brian, posted 10-09-2007 7:43 AM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 118 by Brian, posted 10-10-2007 6:35 AM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 115 of 133 (426430)
10-06-2007 5:17 PM


One the "Who is a Christian Game"
First, I have no doubt that Faith or Buz or Ray or iano or IamJoseph or anyone else who tells me they are a Christian, is a Christian.

I would go a step further and state with a pretty high degree of confidence based on their posts and behavior that they are Biblical Christians.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1850 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 116 of 133 (426530)
10-07-2007 11:09 AM


1 John
as to special knowledge of who is "saved", we have only the fruit of the spirit and individual claim to tell us. if people exhibit the fruit, we must assume they are of god. another guide repeating some of the same information is "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." Followed by this: "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins." so love is sacrificing yourself for others. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." so those who inspire fear and demand punishment are not capable of love and thus do not know god. "If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." the book has already told us that our neighbor is everyone in need of care. these are the uses of brother

1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles
d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

i see no reason to restrict it to "christians," but even if it is so restricted, condemning someone god may not condemn isn't very loving. so saying someone isn't a christian when they claim to be demonstrates a lack of love which is required to know who a christian is.

of course this bit also includes this "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." so now we must deal with this.


  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 117 of 133 (426938)
10-09-2007 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:30 PM


Re: Got to let you guys know..
False.

How in God’s name can it be false when we have Christians on this very thread giving different definitions of what a Christian is!

I have defined Christian the way the Bible defines it.

You have defined it the way you THINK the Bible defines it, but how many other Christians on this very thread would agree with you?

First, we remove the word "Christian" and replace it with "persons who are in God's will," which is synonymous. The Bible is crystal clear in this respect: persons in God's will are those that are persecuted and rejected by the secular AND religious establisment. This is a full-proof criteria: every person in God's will IN the Bible is persecuted by secular and religious establishments;

So, Jonah was a Christian? Amos was a Christian? Isaiah was a Christian?

Tell me when did secular and religious groups ever persecute Joshua?
Your definition is extremely weird Ray, perhaps you aren’t really a Christian at all?

therefore, if you are a Christian, and you are accepted by these entities and loved and not persecuted and rejected then your Christianity is counterfeit.

Ah, the good old persecution complex. Which is completely unfound BTW.

Both Jar and Phat, by these criteria, are not real Christians.

By YOUR invented criteria Ray, but they consider themselves Christian so you are essentially supporting my point that crazy Christians cannot agree on what a Christian actually is.

Both are accepted by the Atheist-evolutionist status quo here at EvC.

But I accept you Ray! Oh crap now you are not a Christian!

While Buzsaw is a Moderator, he is the object of angry invective by all Mods and Admins and Directors.

And by you as well Ray, as he has rolled over and does Percy’s dirty work for him.

Faith is banned.

Justifiably.

Of course I am the devil incarnate.

Atheists don’t believe in the devil Ray, although we are concerned about your psychological condition. ;)

Truth derived from the Bible says persons who have concern about going to hell are probably not, and those who have no concern whatsover probably are.

Yay! I’m saved since I know that Hell is a fairytale, how cool is that?

Brian: the hand of Christ via the gospel (= way of faith apart from the works of the code of conduct known as the law) is available to you.

Sorry, but I set my standards a lot higher than that of a first century conman. Jesus is way below the acceptable moral standards of an atheist. Anyone who would deliberately set up the slaughter of babies isn’t really worth worshipping.

Seize Christ by faith and wait on Him in that state, is my advice.

My advice to you Ray is never eat yellow snow. ;)

Cheers Ray.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 10-10-2007 9:09 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 118 of 133 (427169)
10-10-2007 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Cold Foreign Object
10-06-2007 3:30 PM


Re: Got to let you guys know..
Hi Ray,

Ray writes:

The Bible is crystal clear in this respect: persons in God's will are those that are persecuted and rejected by the secular AND religious establishment.

Can you tell me which secular and religious establishments persecuted St. Paul?

I am having difficulty imagining a secular establishment in first century Palestine.

Thanks.

Brian.

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-06-2007 3:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 133 (427179)
10-10-2007 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Brian
10-09-2007 7:43 AM


Re: Got to let you guys know..
Brian, responding to Ray writes:

...you are essentially supporting my point that crazy Christians cannot agree on what a Christian actually is.

Evidently, some things never change.

NIV writes:

1 Cor 1:11-12-- My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Of course, this brings up the question of what it means to follow Christ anyway...

Brian writes:

Jesus is way below the acceptable moral standards of an atheist. Anyone who would deliberately set up the slaughter of babies isn’t really worth worshiping.

So Jesus deliberately set this up, or can we blame Dad for that one? :confused:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Brian, posted 10-09-2007 7:43 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Brian, posted 10-10-2007 4:22 PM Phat has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 120 of 133 (427250)
10-10-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
10-10-2007 9:09 AM


Re: Got to let you guys know..
So Jesus deliberately set this up, or can we blame Dad for that one?

Well Christians tell me that Jesus and His daddy are one and the same! Jesus is His own daddy, so whoever believes this has to believe that Jesus set up the situation whereby He could happily slaughter little babies, and others.

Jesus is His own dad, do I really need to say how ridiculous Christianity is? :laugh:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 10-10-2007 9:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 11-12-2007 7:56 PM Brian has responded

    
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