Believing in God, But Not Literally

Perhaps it isn't you, but more that I'm having trouble explaining it. Let me try again...It is when one is convinced that they believe, but don't really act like they do. And I don't mean that as acting in a moral vs. immoral manner, but just acting in a way inconsistent with how someone would HAVE to act if they believed.The truck example is the simplest explanation I've heard (although admittedly, maybe not the best one). If someone stands in front of a speeding truck and says he believes the truck exists and believes that it is capable of hurting him, yet he doesn't seem concerned about moving out of the way, I would call that a symbolic belief in the truck vs. an actual belief in the truck. Of course, this would be assuming he doesn't have a death wish or something. The point is not that he wants to die, but that he doesn't act in a manner consistent with someone who doesn't want to die.I see this behavior in many people I know. They say they believe in an all-powerful God that has told them (through the Bible or whatever other means they personally believe) how to lead their lives, etc. Yet when they don't follow those rules they really don't seem to be too concerned or they attempt to justify their actions. Again, I want to emphasize once more that I don't necessarily think these people are being bad or immoral, just inconsistent. Because sometimes their justifications are valid. But if you take a criminal that knowingly breaks the law, whether they justify their actions or not, they still try to run from the police. They run, hide, and do whatever they can to get away because they know that they did something they shouldn't have done. But I don't see that same tendency in some people when it comes to God. If they believe that someone all-powerful told them to do something and they don't do it, how can they not even be concerned? To me it seems almost as if many people believe in the CONCEPT of God and use it as a guide to try and keep themselves on the right path in life, but don't actually believe in God as real being that will react to what they have just done. Therefore, when circumstances necessitate they do something contrary to what they believe God said to do, they aren't truly as concerned because they are only deviating from conceptual construct they set up for themselves. And all of that is just fine if it helps them in their lives. But I'm curious, why not just admit that it is a different type of belief?

Thanks for your reply. Well, you see your wife every day and your dog barks all the time, but miracles are a little more special. I live across town from a chemical plant that has the potential to blow up. I realize it could blow up, but I would still be a little shocked if it actually did. I know Jackson Hole Wyoming is a beautiful place, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be awed when I got there and saw it for myself. I believe God can perform miracles, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be amazed if he performed a big one right now.Now there is an idea out there that miracles, healing, tounges, knowledge, discerning spirits, etc. were gifts that were taken away after the church got its footing (my previous pastor taught this), but I see no scriptural basis for this. So some people may have been taught that these things do not happen today, but I am learning of more honest Christians who have had these gifts even today.

No, I think it says they are human. Humans have the ability to cover up information and illuminate it when they want to. Obviously we are not perfect and cannot live up to Christ's commands completely, but that's why he came: to show mercy. Every time someone asked Christ what a person must do to be saved, he gave them a different answer. He reminds us that all things are possible with God, but that we must seek to enter by the narrow gate. I think only God can judge where a person's heart is even if their mind is somewhat confused.

I am detecting that you are presupposing that God is a created symbol by the human mind and you are asking what is wrong with this? To a Believer who adamantly knows that God is apart from us in that He exists even if no humans were alive, your presuppositions do not connect with me. If you chose to acept Jesus as a symbol of what a good man ought to be, you would accept an icon...sort of like a st. christophers medal...but you would not meet the living God. Jesus is no symbol.

I'm not presuposing that God is a created symbol for everyone, because some people do truly believe - not just symbolicaly. But I think that to SOME people, God is a created symbol yet they don't admit to themselves that it is just a created symbol (for them). What I'm wondering is why people resist admitting that. It seems to be very easy for people to admit that they either believe or don't believe in God, yet it seems quite difficult for them to admit that they believe in God as only conceptual construct. I'm just curious why that is.

Would an example be those people who insist that the Bible is the Word of God and then try to "prove" that by misrepresenting what the Bible actually says ?

Yes, but I'm not talking about miracles. A being you believe exists talking to you isn't exactly miraculous. Even humans can do that. I'm also not talking about being awed. That's to be expected. If I told someone that a chemical plant just blew up, I would expect them to be shocked or awed, but they would most likely believe me as well. But if told that person that God speaks to me, odds are they would think I was crazy or delusional. If I made that claim to an atheist, then their personal belief is consistent with their assesment that I was delusional. But if I made that claim to somone who believes in God, it would seem inconsistent with their personal beliefs to think that I was delusional. Why would I seem crazy? Especially if they believed in the stories in the Bible about how God spoke to many people, Moses for example, without thinking that Moses was crazy and delusional. Now I'm not saying that every single person that believes in God would think I was delusional - but there would be some, and those are the ones I'm talking about.And by the way, this is just an example. I don't really think God speaks to me.

I've read through this thread and I think I understand that you are trying to figure out the psychology of faith.I think there is something here that I can add.Faith is not a once and for all surety. Faith constantly wavers in anyone who seriously engages with it.Faith is a process, not a position that you arrive at suddenly, and then after that you steadfastly believe--unless you are a thoughtless person.The believer will have days when he asks himself, "Why on earth should I believe that?"Not that I'm a believer. But I read about it.

I know what you're talking about GreyOwl. I've wondered this very thing for quite some time.I had a friend who claims to be a born again Xian, yet other than professing it at each and every chance she gets, she doesn't seem to act any different than I do. Yes, she goes to church semi-regularly and reads the bible and prays. She can become quite strident and upset if anything in a conversation suggests that god doesn't exist or isn't like she thinks he is. I have been offered Pascal's wager more times than I can count and until a few months ago have been the topic of many a nightly prayer. She might argue that premarital sex is wrong, yet it hasn't stopped her, she can become quite upset at the issue of abortion yet has taken the morning after pill. She claims humility yet doesn't show it. She can swear like a longshoreman and her conversation generally turns to some "hot" guy she thinks was checking her out earlier.I have several other friends who if asked will say "Yes of course I believe in God, don't you?" and when attempting to engage them in a discussion of religion they have a few vague Xian views but have no clue where they came from. These friends have no discernably different lifestyle than I do. They do not go to church or pray on a regular basis, they do not act any different than I or any other non-xian that I know of.All these friends will tell you that yes they believe in God, some will be quite vocal about it. I see no evidence that they are attempting to live their life in a way that I would think someone who believed would.If I honestly thought that there was a devine being that had power over everything in my life and who could damn me for eternity, I think I would be terrified NOT to act like I was suppose to.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Faith is believing something to be factual in the absence of evidence, logic, or reason. Faith is self imposed ignorance. IMO.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

If you follow many of the discussions here you'll notice some pretty vast differences of opinion on what constitutes a Christian life and just what Christianity means. I have one vision of Christianity and I can assure you, it is not all that popular a point of view among the majority of Christians here at EvC (or some other boards as well).Many people seem to see Christianity as a "Get out of Hell" card, a trump that can be played to forgive a multitude of errors. They believe therfore they are saved. If they slip up, doesn't matter. They can say the magic word and down comes the duck (a reference for the Old Farts among us. Anyone remember the name of that Program?).Others seem to see Christianity as a grand pageant. It's Floods and Miracles and Treks and Waters Parting and Plagues and Killing all the First Borns and Walls Falling Down. It's a ringside seat the day the Great Ass Whumping begins; free beer and hot dogs to boot. It's being on the winning team and sitting in the Grandstand with great "We're # 1" fingers held aloft.On the other hand, I believe in a quieter Christianity. It's one filled with little things. It's one where you help reach the cans on the top shelf, where you stop to help a turtle cross the road or even to simply admire the spring flowers. It's a collection of small things. It's seldom dramatic and hopefully unnoticed. It's laughter and tears and a small, whispering voice instead or the strident trumpet call.But it also recognizes that we are simply human, not supernatural. We screw up regularly. We don't behave as we should. We do fail. We do commit sins of commission and even more often, sins of ommission. Yet, if we are trying to live a Christian life, tomorrow we try to do a little better.That's all. Try. No expectation of success, do only that which you can.That's all we can do in this life. If we can motivate one child, encourage one other person, help a few along the way even if in only the smallest manner, then we have done what we could.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar, I've read your posts on other threads on this board, and I can definitely say that you are not the kind of person I'm referring to. By that I mean that your beliefs seems to be self-consistent. I have nothing against people that believe in God, even though I myself do not. I'm just completely puzzled by people that seem to half-believe....I can't imagine half-believing in anything! But it is nice to see that I'm not the only person to have noticed the phenomenon. And it isn't just Christians - I have Jewish friends that are the exact same way. So I'm not referring to not living like "a Christian should", but just how you would expect someone to react if they believed such a powerful force really existed, even if they weren't really religious. Yes, that is what I mean. If I believed in something that powerful, I would have to be a complete idiot to not do what I was supposed to do. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Now this is an interesting position that I've never heard from believers, which is what I thought you were based on what you wrote until I read the last line. What you say would explain why the phenomenon I mentioned occurs, but doesn't it still seem a bit odd? What else does ANYONE believe the existance of and yet has to constantly remind themselves that they do or constantly ask themselves why they believe it exists? Who knows, maybe there are other such things and I'm missing them...

Oh, sure. There are many things about which we waver in our beliefs. Does she love me or does she not? The same is true for any belief for which the evidence is shifting and subjective. Even in science, the belief can go up and down depending on evidence. You might say, what evidence is there for religious belief? Oh, all sorts of subjective and philosophic beliefs. I can talk about them if you like.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-04-2005 21:46 AM

Was it "You Bet Your Life?" with Groucho Marx? Say the secret prayer and win $50.00!

As I have previously remarked, mostly christianity is actually about good citizenship, not god. It's primary virtues are obedience and not rocking the boat.