Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 163 (455661)
02-13-2008 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by iano
02-13-2008 7:28 AM


Re: Hello Iano
quote:
To be deceived means that you believe a lie to be true. In order to believe that this lie was true, Eve had to reject what God had said would be the consequence of disobedience. To chose to reject what God had said.
And she (or rather, the serpent) was right. The consequences for disobedience never happened.
She didn't die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 7:28 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 11:43 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 73 of 163 (455663)
02-13-2008 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ICANT
02-13-2008 8:20 AM


Re: Questions answer questions?
So, is you God all-powerful or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 8:20 AM ICANT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 74 of 163 (455664)
02-13-2008 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
02-13-2008 10:30 AM


Re: Hello Iano
quote:
The woman told the devil who was speaking to her through the serpent
What is the scriptural justification for the claim that Satan is speaking through the serpent?
According to my reading of Genesis, the serpent is just a serpent, and even God refers to him as nothing more than a "beast of the field".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 10:30 AM ICANT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 163 (455670)
02-13-2008 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
02-13-2008 10:58 AM


Re: Questions answer questions?
quote:
God is exercising his omnipotence in giving you the free will.
So, God can't prevent or cause anybody doing anything.
Is that correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 10:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 12:23 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 163 (455685)
02-13-2008 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
02-13-2008 11:43 AM


Re: Hello Iano
quote:
Perhaps Eve died the kind of death that comes through sinning.
But that's not what it says in Genesis.
It doesn't say "spiritual death" or imply sort of metaphorical death.
It just says "die".
quote:
What with her having just sinned.
How could she sin before having the knowledge of good and evil, which she only aquired after eating the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 11:43 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 12:33 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 163 (455687)
02-13-2008 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
02-13-2008 11:50 AM


Re: Hello Iano
quote:
Why did the man not correct the woman when she spoke to the serpent adding not to touch the fruit?
Maybe it was becasue Adam, just like Eve, didn't have knowledge of Good and Evil before eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?
quote:
The devil who was speaking through the serpent knew exactly what God had said, just as the man knew.
The serpent was just a "beast of the field".
there is no scriptural support whatsoever to assume that Satan was speaking through it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 11:50 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-13-2008 12:29 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 163 (455698)
02-13-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICANT
02-13-2008 12:23 PM


Re: Man choosing
quote:
God can cause you to do anything. God can prevent you from doing anything. This is correct.
If god can (and does) cause anyone to do, or stop anyone from doing, anything, at any time, then we don't really have free will.
If god has ever, even a single time, contravened in anybody's life to cause or prevent anything happening, then free will doesn't exist.
quote:
This is the devil's kingdom at present and has been from the beginning.
So, do you admit that there is no unambiguous scripture anywhere in the Bible that states that the serpent in Genesis = Satan?
Don't you think that is a bit of a shoehorn, sticking Satan in there where he isn't actually referred to at all, and particularly when he is referred to as simply a "beast of the field"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 12:23 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 1:16 PM nator has replied
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 1:49 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 163 (455732)
02-13-2008 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
02-13-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Man choosing
quote:
It can exist but be constrained to operate within set boundaries.
Then, if God is "constrained", He isn't All-Powerful.
quote:
All that matters is that you have sufficient free will to enable choice on the main matter to hand. If 10% of your life consisted of free willed actions and the rest influenced by God then free will you had - for that 10% of life.
That's just a dodge, and a pretty clumsy one at that.
If free will isn't 24/7, then free will doesn't exist.
If I can be compelled to do something that I wouldn't ordinarily have done, then I didn't freely choose to do it, did I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 1:16 PM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 163 (455733)
02-13-2008 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
02-13-2008 1:49 PM


Re: Man choosing
quote:
I do not believe in talking snakes.
You believe in a magical Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you believe in a magical god who poofs people and animals, and in fact the whole universe, into existence, you believe in a magical Noachian Flood that magically left no evidence behind, etc. etc. etc.
You believe in all sorts of magic, I don't know why talking snakes should give you a problem.
quote:
And yes God did put a curse on the snake because the devil had used him.
Can you show me the biblical verse where it specifically says that Satan had used the serpent in Genesis, and that God cursed the serpent specifically because of Satan's actions?
My copy of Genesis mentions nothing at all of the rather wild interpretations you seem to be making about Satan's involvement.
Satan is not mentioned in Genesis at all.
A serpent is. You are putting Satan into the Genesis story where he doesn't belong.
By the way, that's not very just of God to curse a poor, dumb animal if it was only being posessed by Satan and had no choice in what it did, is it?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 1:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2008 5:04 PM nator has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024