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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
CTD
Member (Idle past 5895 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 158 of 163 (456869)
02-20-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ICANT
02-12-2008 7:31 PM


Re: Re-Free Will
quote:
God has Angels that worship Him because they are made without choice of doing anything else. They are like robots. They do what they are programed to do.
I must dispute this on the grounds that fallen angels had free will. I think there's a good chance you'll agree.
I compliment you on your patience. The tired old cop-out which is the topic of this thread's beyond mine at the present. I just have a hard time with arguments that defeat themselves so quickly.
1) God is omnipotent and omniscient.
2) God made everything, and everything is the way He made it.
3) God is unable to create creatures with free will.
1 defeats 3. But I can't really say this is worse than that other thread where they're saying God should "just forgive" all the sinners who don't repent. While I'm sure there are sinners who'd love a chance to ruin Heaven for everyone for all eternity, I'm surer still it shan't be given to them.
I wish you well with your efforts, ICANT & company. Anyone arrogant enough to claim they know more than an omniscient entity isn't going to be convinced the sky is blue if they desire it to be chromatically otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ICANT, posted 02-12-2008 7:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2008 3:12 PM CTD has replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5895 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 160 of 163 (456924)
02-20-2008 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ICANT
02-20-2008 3:12 PM


Fallen angels' Free Will
quote:
So if I believe the Bible and this is God's Word in Isaiah I have to conclude the devil had no choice. I also have to conclude he is doing an execellent job, just like everything else God created except mankind.
Nowhere do I find where God gave the devil a choice.
I find otherwise. One can generally choose not do a thing as readily as one chooses to do it. Likewise, one can choose not to say something one should not say.
But we find more information in the same book. Is. 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
You seem to read information that is not given in the verse you cited. It is not said (there) how light was formed or how darkness was created. Neither are means or specifics given regarding peace and evil. Was evil directly created, or via things that had the potential to be or become evil? Doesn't say. Is the creation of evil finished, or does it continue? Doesn't say. Same with peace. If God had wanted to include more specifics, I do not doubt that they'd be there. As they're missing, I recommend against 'filling in the blanks'.
There is one blank I'd venture to fill in. We're told that God separated the light from the darkness, so I think it's safe to tentatively conclude that darkness was created by the removal of light.
But looking to the future, what of the time when the saints shall judge the angels? Judging a robot is simple: malfunctioning, or working properly. It looks to me as if your idea makes God's plan a waste of time.
Turn your attention to John 8:44, please.
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Mark well the last sentence. It's not "When he speaketh a lie, he followeth his programming." No. It's just the opposite. Satan's lies are his own invention.
There are other difficulties, but I pray these will suffice.
quote:
Man is a citizen of this world and will suffer the same fate as the devil because of the first man's choice to wilfully disobey God.
This is spot-on. There is no better definition of sin (and thus evil) than 'willful disobedience of God. Matter and energy do not sin because they always obey God. Indeed it's only a few verses later in Is. 45 that we find
[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2008 3:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2008 10:49 PM CTD has not replied

  
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