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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 5 of 163 (455401)
02-12-2008 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


variables
he knows the variables.
if you take the behavior of say, an ant. and you put it in a box with choices, you can determine the different actions the ant can possibly make, and say by introducing a food, when its hungry, that it will find it. and eat it. because you know the variables. by this way, can you know the things that it will definitely do, and be able to time almost to perfection where it will be at what time you introduce the food, by observation.
the ant has less awareness, and cant see what or where you, the observer will be, but you can see and observe it, to the scale you can determine its choices.
we cannot observe and know what God will do, but he can observe and know us, and know what we will do, because of the greater awareness.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Logic, posted 02-11-2008 11:35 PM Logic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 10:53 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 7 of 163 (455410)
02-12-2008 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 10:53 AM


Re: variables
Then we don't have Free Will.
you and the ant both have free will, but you can determine what it will do by knowing it.
take your spouse, you can determine the reaction of your spouse by knowing the spouse. but your spouse has free will, and will not necessarily do what you like, but you know him/her enough to know an outcome.
for instance, a man buys some new golf clubs. the wife wanted new shoes. but there was only enough money for one or the other. the man bought the clubs because he "made the money" and was preparing to show the clubs to his wife, because he knew she would be "pissed". and by past behavior, knew to wrap the clubs up in something soft, until she cooled down.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 11:41 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 9 of 163 (455422)
02-12-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 11:41 AM


Re: variables
If you can determine what they will do by knowing it, then they had no choice but to do it, and thus they had no free will.
we all have the choice. some people change.
if you see a plane coming towards your house, that is on fire and missing a wing, and you run in and say : everyone get out a plane is fixing to hit the house! you'll all be killed!
there is chance that you were too late, or they might not believe you because you like to prank, and by even a 30 second delay could cost all their life.
the man prepared for the reaction, but she might surprise him.
we all have free will. the power of choice. if you say: predictability means no free will; you have made a choice in a belief that i think a very few would agree with. we choose our habits which become predictability. but habits can change. I'm living proof.
just because you cant see the heart and mind of an individual, doesn't mean that a superior being could not. you cant hear what a dog can hear. nor smell the way a dog smells.
but as you choose to believe, its your choice. and i cant say anything to change that. its your choice. just as i believe what i believe, because i choose it.
Edited by tesla, : know=no

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 11:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 12:39 PM tesla has replied
 Message 12 by iano, posted 02-12-2008 12:48 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 14 of 163 (455439)
02-12-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 12:39 PM


Re: variables
Then he didn't know that she was going to be pissed. Know, in the absolute sense that is required for prophecies, etc like this thread is talking about.
he believed absolutely she would be "pissed" or he wouldn't have wrapped the clubs. but truthfully, how she was going to react depended on her choice.
Its about absolute predictability, as in preordination and destiny, prophecy, etc. If these are true then we do not have a choice and we lack free will.
some things are absolutely predictable. like payday. after 5 years of same pay same time same day, you expect it. but every once in a while something can surprise you. the market is by choice of buyers. you can help your product through subliminal messaging and advertising, but the choice is still up to the buyers. if the demand is replaced, or lessened, you could loose your job.
But if god know your choice before you choose it then you aren't really choosing because you have to choose what god knows you will choose otherwise god doesn't really know what your choice is.
God puts you infront of two rooms A and B. You have to choose one room. But god knows that you will choose A before you choose it. Can you then decide to choose B instead? If you can, then god didn't know your choice before hand, and if you must choose A, then you lack the free will to choose B.
it is your choice. i can feed a dog, and attempt to teach it tricks. dog A: learns the tricks. dog b: is too lazy. so wont learn tricks. i spend more time with dog b to help it learn, hoping for it to learn. but if all fails and it is too lazy, i may just get another dog. it depends on my patience.
Do you really think that you choose your beliefs? I mean, can you choose to un-believe something?
Could you choose to believe that, say, the world is flat? Or the sky is green? Can you really say that you can choose to believe something?
my brother is color blind. so to him grass is blue. not sure how that color thing works. what we see we define by how we see it. we know the color red is red, but what does red look like through another's eyes? maybe if you changed views, it would be what you would call blue.
i believe absolutely in my power of choice. i can choose to go to work, or choose not too. but i have to be willing to accept the consequences. if i choose to cheat on my wife, and my marriage ends, can i blame the whore? i can try. but inevitably, it is my choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:21 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 16 of 163 (455442)
02-12-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by iano
02-12-2008 12:48 PM


Re: variables
if you see storm clouds, you know a storm is on the horizen.
given mans sharing of information, and God knowing how all things work, he can predict the possibilities of our technologies by our desires as a whole. because we choose to satisfy the majority because doing so brings us wealth.
if enough carbon is released into the atmosphere, will our sky become a constant cloud like the gaseous planets? we ar destroying the balance of the atmosphere, but we don't know what its going to do when "enough" is there to trap more than we are used too. but God does. he knows how all things work.
if i birth a child, and set rules, and the child breaks them. what should i do? if i tell the child, do not go near the stairs, you could fall and die, and the child sneaks and gets past my counter measures, and falls and is hurt severely, i can put up better counter measures, but the child will grow. and the next problem is drugs., and i tell my child to avoid them. but he does them anyways, and overdoses and dies; am i to blame? i can lead a horse to water, but i cant make it drink.
these analogies are just to support the truth of what free will is. you do have a choice. and the laws are set, because God knows what we don't. like the child didn't understand the true danger of the stairs. but we knew it, and hoped pour child would not go against our wishes. like drugs. we knew it. but the child did not believe. and went too far.
God knows the dangers we do not. he knows the reasons for the laws he set. we cant understand them "yet". but knowing that God is, is the start. the choice...is ours.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by iano, posted 02-12-2008 12:48 PM iano has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 23 of 163 (455455)
02-12-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 1:21 PM


Re: variables
very well. but if you beleive you have no choice, you have still made a choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:47 PM tesla has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 34 of 163 (455504)
02-12-2008 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Logic
02-12-2008 5:43 PM


Re: 0.o
So .
Ok, lets for sake of argument agree with this. If this is so then god knew Adam was going to dam the human race. Therefore he must have know that I’m going to hell because I was born a bastard (Dam my mum and dads child hood flings) and I’m not a christen or any other religious follower.
i know God is, yet i cannot say what God does or does not know. God only knows.
i can tell you that i believe he knew the path either way. ie: in the event A =b in the event C=D
looking at the universe is cause and effect. if wood is wet, not burn by standard flame, if wood is dry, will burn by standards. cause and effect with energies. if in condition A result B.
i believe that God knows that even with the choices, overall the result leads to 2+2=4 in the finish, with different variables in the 2+2, but still ending up 2+2=4.
do you understand my logic?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Logic, posted 02-12-2008 5:43 PM Logic has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 61 of 163 (455586)
02-12-2008 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Logic
02-12-2008 7:10 PM


Re: Hello Iano
GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)
without understanding what God is, interpreting what did come from God is difficult.
its easy to miss whats being said, unless the context is clear.
read the bible with this in mind:
God is reality like breathing air. he was the original body, original consciousness before all things that created all from himself (so you are a part of his body)
God created all from himself based on his own faith he was. (faith=action based on belief with no doubt to the outcome)
by this, you can understand doubt. doubt is poison to faith. therefore poison to God. doubt then , is satan (look at convo between satan and God in job.)
therefore, evil is the absence of God, and we exist only in his body, by his faith. no faith, no part in the body.
because faith is poison, the Word (consciousness of God) came into being in the body of a man to defeat doubt, and be a shield between the true consciousness of God, and man. so that the body isn't poisoned)
the bible i the "written (or published) word of God" but the living Word is the consciousness of the energy that was "existence" singluar, timeless.
NOW. remember the verses you do know, put them into that context, and see if it makes better sense.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Logic, posted 02-12-2008 7:10 PM Logic has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 101 of 163 (455794)
02-13-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
02-13-2008 12:33 PM


Re: Hello Iano
if you accept God, he is superior to all your reasoning. period. he can do what or what not as he chooses, and we cannot understand if he told us about how he decides his actions.
if you see God in reality, as the initial body with intelligence , before all things, then all things are a part of his body, and outside his body is no existence at all. anything that exists, exists only in his faith that he is, which is the established existence, and the laws of how things exist were set by God for this universe and its form.
now, lets observe death under this observation: faith: existence no faith: no existence.
if all we know and study is real only by faith, then the death of this body is recycled in the body, and since God has a consciousness(intelligence) then death is only as God decides in his body (energy cannot be created or destroyed)
einstein believed in an afterlife because science Say's nothing is truly destroyed.
now i cant show you proof, accept faith. if all that is exists by faith, then by faith will you have a part of faith. if you have no faith , but doubt, then doubt is corrupt to faith. and faith will not hear doubt and exist if it doubts. so faith will cut off doubt.
thats why you have the dogmatism in threads such as these. if you are a person of faith, you will resist doubt, and conquer it, or you will loose faith and be conquered.
but again what is the truth?
you have the choice in what to believe. what you believe in, you have faith in. thats the choice.
is it dangerous to get it wrong? i mean, if i don't believe in God ? that means there's no hell right?
what is the truth? what is "reality"?
is God? or is he not?
the answer is the answer to the question : what is existence, and how is it possible?
the choice however, is yours.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 12:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 8:28 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 103 of 163 (455797)
02-13-2008 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Crooked to what standard
02-13-2008 7:32 PM


I believe that God doesn't knowwhat we'll do. However, He can, how to say, impose His will on us. It's still a free choice, but God can give us the urge to do something that may cause something to happen (something that He predicted) as long as the will is followed.
i believe that God knows what God knows, and no man can know what God truly does or does not know.
i also believe that if you choose to serve God, truly. then God may use his servants for his will, and not the will of the man or the individual. and those are the "works" professed of in the bible. not mans, but Gods will by men who truly serve him.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Crooked to what standard, posted 02-13-2008 7:32 PM Crooked to what standard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Crooked to what standard, posted 02-13-2008 8:29 PM tesla has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 109 of 163 (455822)
02-13-2008 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by iano
02-13-2008 8:28 PM


Re: Hello Iano
to put it simply:
either God is, or IS NOT.
no in between.
the choice in what you believe, and walk in faith in.
but every step you take is faith regardless, the question is, in what?
it is good to question the truth of existing. because a lot more rides on it than this simple apparently useless life we live now. where mankind only destroys or bends the natural order to its will, and to the destruction of the natural order.
ask the question. but what you choose to believe having asked it, is your choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by iano, posted 02-13-2008 8:28 PM iano has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 114 of 163 (455884)
02-14-2008 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by iano
02-14-2008 11:28 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
this song is a perfect discription of your free will. i pray you understand its true context as you read it.
If I Were A Carpenter"
[Written by Tim Hardin]
If I were a carpenter
And you were a lady,
Would you marry me anyway?
Would you have my baby?
If a tinker were my trade
would you still find me,
Carrying the pots I made,
Following behind me.
Save my love through loneliness,
Save my love for sorrow,
I'm given you my onliness,
Come give your tomorrow.
If I worked my hands in wood,
Would you still love me?
Answer me babe, "Yes I would,
I'll put you above me."
If I were a miller
at a mill wheel grinding,
would you miss your color box,
and your soft shoe shining?
If I were a carpenter
and you were a lady,
Would you marry me anyway?
Would you have my baby?
Would you marry anyway?
Would you have my baby?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 02-14-2008 11:28 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 02-15-2008 4:57 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 116 of 163 (456046)
02-15-2008 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by iano
02-15-2008 4:57 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
if you choose to not decide, you still have made a choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 02-15-2008 4:57 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 4:07 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 123 of 163 (456466)
02-18-2008 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
02-18-2008 4:07 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
an object on one path that is subject to the one path because of its condition, takes the path it can only take. you on the other hand, have a choice.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 4:07 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 8:47 AM tesla has replied
 Message 126 by iano, posted 02-18-2008 9:20 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1618 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 125 of 163 (456474)
02-18-2008 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by rstrats
02-18-2008 8:47 AM


Re: Free will. As in problems with
the ability to accept a truth is different per individual. the choice to examine evidence to come to conclusion is yours.
what is necessary for you to believe?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 8:47 AM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by rstrats, posted 02-18-2008 9:36 AM tesla has replied

  
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