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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 11 of 163 (455436)
02-12-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 12:39 PM


Re: variables
quote:
But if god know your choice before you choose it then you aren't really choosing because you have to choose what god knows you will choose otherwise god doesn't really know what your choice is.
How does knowledge of someone's choice cause them to choose the way they did?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:14 PM humoshi has replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 13 of 163 (455438)
02-12-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 12:39 PM


Re: variables
quote:
God puts you infront of two rooms A and B. You have to choose one room. But god knows that you will choose A before you choose it. Can you then decide to choose B instead? If you can, then god didn't know your choice before hand, and if you must choose A, then you lack the free will to choose B.
You can choose whatever room you want. You can choose A or B. Just because God knows which one you will choose doesn't mean you had no choice in the matter.

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 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by reiverix, posted 02-12-2008 12:54 PM humoshi has replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 18 of 163 (455448)
02-12-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by reiverix
02-12-2008 12:54 PM


Re: variables
quote:
But if it was already known by god, you only think you chose freely. The reality is you didn't have a choice.
This is just a bald assertion.
Is it possible to have knowledge of someone's freely chosen choice? The answer is of course yes. This is all the foreknowledge entails.
It's not
God knows you will do x, therefore you must do x.
it is
It must be true that (if god knows you will do x, you will do x)
In other words, God knows the choice you will make, even though you could have chosen otherwise.

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 Message 15 by reiverix, posted 02-12-2008 12:54 PM reiverix has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:24 PM humoshi has replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 22 of 163 (455454)
02-12-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 1:14 PM


Re: variables
quote:
Because it prevents them from choosing otherwise.
This may be quite obvious to you, but it doesn't logically follow. If knowledge of a choice means you had no choice then you have never made any choices due to your knowledge of the past.
Imagine watching your past on video tape. Just because you know what the agent (you) in the film will do doesn't mean the agent didn't choose what to do.
I can choose, in the future, x or ~x. I have to choose one. Someone has foreknowledge of which one I will choose.
I see no obvious contradiction or inconsistencies in the previous statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:45 PM humoshi has replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 24 of 163 (455459)
02-12-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 1:24 PM


Re: variables
If god knows the choice you will make, then you CANNOT choose otherwise. You have to go with the one that god knows you will choose otherwise god would be wrong.
If god knows the choice you will make, then you will make that choice. You have to go with the one that god knows you will choose otherwise you will make a different choice than the one you choose(which is contradictory).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:48 PM humoshi has not replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 28 of 163 (455464)
02-12-2008 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 1:45 PM


Re: variables
quote:
Not just any knowledge. It has to be future knowledge.
Knowledge is knowledge is knowledge. How can knowledge of an event have a causual influence on that event?
quote:
If it is absolutely known which choice you will make in the future, then you cannot do something other than that choice for if you did, then it was not absolutely know which choice you would make.
If someone knows which choice you will make in the future and you make a different choice, then you will choose a different choice than the one you will choose.
That doesn't make any sense.
quote:
It doesn't work for the past. It has to be in the future.
Just as knowledge of past events has no influence on past events, so it is with foreknowledge. Atleast, I don't how knowledge of an event can causally have an effect on it.
quote:
The problem is that someone cannot have foreknowledge of your choice. If they do have the foreknowledge, then how can you choose something that they didn't foreknow?
Assuming they have foreknowledge, you are essentially asking how you can choose something else than what you will choose. It doesn't make sense.
Edited by humoshi, : No reason given.
Edited by humoshi, : missing words and what no

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 1:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 2:08 PM humoshi has replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 30 of 163 (455473)
02-12-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 2:08 PM


Re: variables
quote:
When the event is in the future and the knowledge is absolute, the event must happen.
This is an example of the modal fallacy.
It should read:
It must be true that: if an event is in the future and knowledge is absolute, then the event occurs in the future
quote:
No, I am asking how can your choice be different from their foreknowledge...
This is the crux of the situation and the part I don't think you are understanding.
1. If someone has true foreknowledge, then they know what choice you will make
2. You cannot choice a different choice than the choice you make, i.e, saying "I will choose a different choice than the choice I will make" doesn't make sense).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 2:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 2:43 PM humoshi has replied

  
humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 5249 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 46 of 163 (455528)
02-12-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 2:43 PM


Re: variables
quote:
No its not. The modal fallacy is the error of treating modal conditionals as if the modality applies only to the consequent of the conditional.
That is not what I am doing.
It's exactly what you are doing. Here is your argument:
i. If someone has foreknowledge of your choice A, then you must choose A.
ii. Someone has foreknowledge of your choice A
Therefore, you must choose A
The same argument can be made for past events:
i. If someone knows you made choice A, then you must have chosen A
ii. Someone knows you made choice A
Therefore, you must have chosen A
In both cases, the must is only qualifying the consquent, whereas it should be qualifying the entire "if-then" proposition.
Why is the conclusion wrong in the second case but not the first?
quote:
I'm saying that you cannot choose a different choice than the one that they have foreknowledge of.
The choice they have foreknowledge of is the one you will make, or else its not foreknowledge. You can choose whatever you want still, it will just be known beforehand the choice you will make.
quote:
However, if their forknowledge is absolutely accurate, then you do not have the ability to change the decision that you have not made yet.
You want the ability to change the choice you will make? That doesn't make any sense. There is nothing to change because you haven't made the choice yet!
quote:
You haven't made the choice yet so you're not changing your choice. You are changing what they have foresaw you doing and then that makes their foreknowledge false.
It's not foreknowledge if it turns out false.
Edited by humoshi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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