Free will, or is it?

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God is exercising his omnipotence in giving you the free will.

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So, God can't prevent or cause anybody doing anything.Is that correct?

One thing tells me that he was.

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Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

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The rest of your post is fairly speculative and I'm wondering what is it about the above (seemingly plain language) that has you read something (I'm not quite sure what) into it.

Hi CK, I do not suggest that my God does not know everything. In Fact I say He does know everything. Even to what you will eat for breakfast tomorrow morning if He allows you to see tomorrow, as your days are numbered and He knows to the exact moment you will draw your last breath.I do say God has limited Himself to not changing any decision man has made since the first man exercised his free will and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. All of that man's descendants have had the knowledge of good and evil and have been given the authority to make their own decisions to do as they choose. God limited Himself in that He will not interfere with those decisions.You like many others who know not God equate His ability to see everything with controlling everything.People who do not believe in God and even those who believe in Him but have not been born again have no way of beginning to understand God.Isai 55:8 (KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.1Cor 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

You seem to missing the larger point that has been made over and over again, so let me try one more time to explain it to you.Your take is that god creates the universe and then within the universe, man can exercise his free will as he pleases. The problem with this is that if the christian god is as described, it is impossible for him not to affect all of the outcomes at the point of creation.Why is this? because god has perfect knowledge of everything and is not bound by temporality - the end is as clear to him as the start. This means that before his creation, he is aware of the impact of every single design choice he makes and how this will affect the linear progression of his creation. More importantly because he has perfect knowledge, it is impossible for him not to know how changing any infinite number of variables at any infinitely small or large level would have resulted in a slightly different universe and a slightly different outcome in terms of linear progression of the creation.This is the crux of the problem - it is inherent in the creation that every element and every possibility occurs as the designer wanted - because it is impossible for him not to know the outcomes.There can only be free will in this universe, if a) god sets the intital conditions but is unable to determine possible outcomes or b) god is unable to control all of the conditiions and variables that determine the state of the universe. Neither a or b are possible with the mainstgream christian god concept.

Not in the sense of dropping down dead on the spot, granted. Perhaps it was this kind of death then:Ephesians 2:1 "And to you did he give life, when you were dead through your wrongdoing and sins"Perhaps Eve died the kind of death that comes through sinning. What with her having just sinned.

Hi lano, The garden was a big place, so why did he have to be standing by the woman's side?If he was by her side:Why did the man not correct the woman when she spoke to the serpent adding not to touch the fruit? The devil who was speaking through the serpent knew exactly what God had said, just as the man knew.Why did the man not mention the serpent when he was explaining to God how he had come to eat the fruit?But even if he was standing by her side he willfully chose to eat the fruit as he did not offer an excuse. He did not claim to have been tricked or deceived. He said the woman you gave to be with me gave to me and I ate.I did not choose to throw it on the ground and not eat therefore I chose to disobey you God.Slice it dice it stir it anyway you want the man in the garden willfully chose to eat of the fruit. Because of that choice he and all his descendants were kicked out of God's estate.God made a way man can get back in His grace and return and live in His estate. His Son died to pay the debt to purchase man back from the slavery the first man sold his descendants into.Because of that payment God was satisfied and so He offers a free full pardon to all those who will receive it.Man has been given the ability to choose without interference from God to accept or reject that offer. This ability is called free will.Now everyone on this site has the ability to choose to respond to this post. They also have the ability to choose not to respond to this post. Your choice.Everyone has the ability to choose to accept or reject God's offer of a free pardon. Your choice.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Not being bound by time, God can occupy a point in our future right now - whereas we're stuck here in the present (which he occupies also). If God's perfect knowledge comes out of being able to observe all points in the time-existance of an agent agent, then that aspect of perfect knowledge is not at all determining. It depends a bit on the manner of creation I suppose.... At the point of his creating a free agent he can know everything it will do because he occupies all points in it's being: it's past, present and future. It's freewill doesn't impact on his perfect knowledge.Creating robots is one way to ensure undisturbed perfect knowledge. All-points-in-time-occupancy w.r.t the temporal existance of a free agent is another.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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Perhaps Eve died the kind of death that comes through sinning.

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But that's not what it says in Genesis.It doesn't say "spiritual death" or imply sort of metaphorical death.It just says "die".

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What with her having just sinned.

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How could she sin before having the knowledge of good and evil, which she only aquired after eating the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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Why did the man not correct the woman when she spoke to the serpent adding not to touch the fruit?

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Maybe it was becasue Adam, just like Eve, didn't have knowledge of Good and Evil before eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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The devil who was speaking through the serpent knew exactly what God had said, just as the man knew.

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The serpent was just a "beast of the field".there is no scriptural support whatsoever to assume that Satan was speaking through it.

Hi nator, You phrase that question wrong.God can cause you to do anything. God can prevent you from doing anything. This is correct.Now since God has limited Himself to give you free will.God will not cause you to do anything. God will not prevent you from doing anything. This is correct.Just because God has limited Himself as to what He will do concerning your free will does not take away His ability to be able to control your actions if He wanted too.From Message 73God can do anything He chooses to do.From Message 74This is the devil's kingdom at present and has been from the beginning. Just as he could enter Judas he could enter the snake.
Unless you believe in talking snakes. If you want to believe that it's OK by me.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No, you should note the word "if" and the word "why" and the question-mark, learn what question-marks mean, and then you'll no longer confuse questions with statements. I don't know any Gods, which was why I used the word "concept".I'm saying that if an omniscient, omnipotent God chooses to give us genuine free will, he is passing on some power and sacrificing his ability to know the future, so would no longer be described as omniscient and omnipotent. By definition.A being cannot have all power and all knowledge once others can make decisions and influence events. So, there's a contradiction in your theology. He would also be sacrificing it, as well, and becoming an ex-omnipotent God. He is power sharing by granting any power at all to us.

He didn't have to be. We could also speculate that the serpent did his dance and it was 2 years later before it "clicked" with her that the fruit was desirable for gaining wisdom. The text doesn't tell us that the serpents temptation and her realisation and chosing were sequentially-immediate events.A plain reading, without reading anything into it, gives the impression that the serpent tempted, she chose there and then and he was standing next to her at that time. We don't know that he didn't. We don't know that he did. The text doesn't tell us. We don't know who told Eve about consequences. Did God? Did God tell her something he didn't tell Adam. Did Adam mistakenly extend the prohibition in his own mind and convey that error to Eve so that there was no need to correct her on the day.I suggest a plain reading instead of all this specualtation. We don't know what the serpent knew precisely. All he need do is twist everything he is told about what God said. He could have been largely thinking on his...er...feet - not knowing the consequences of what he was engaged in. Would you offer up a talking serpent as an excuse for something you did However he came to eat the fruit willfully it was done. Your speculation about wanting to stick by his missus is but another motivation to the one offered by the serpent. Obey/disobey - that remains the only show in town Ingenious. Adams attempt to place the blame on God. Nothing much has changed in the meantime (see EvCforum.net) I'm not disagreeing with you. She chose. He chose. They died. We died. Hallelujah I'd largely agree except to say that we have no free will therefore cannot do anything in terms of choosing for this gift. God must be the one to place it in our hands for us. All we can do is chose to reject it.

Don't people us The Book of Revelation to support the snake being Satan?Something about Satan being describes as a snake, or something? I'm going from memory here Anyways, I don't think you can say that there's none whatsoever.Well, I guess you could maintain that if you just deny it as support.

So? The Bible talks of different kinds of deaths. Seeing as they didn't die the usual kind of death we can conclude that God was lying, mistaken or was talking about some other kind of death.Certainly their being kicked out of his presence aligns with the notion of spiritual deathWhen your not sure where the evidence leads it's best to ask where the evidence point.

Does a bear shit in the woods?