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Author Topic:   Creator of God, Big Bang
Lemkin
Junior Member (Idle past 5896 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 01-30-2008


Message 121 of 162 (452612)
01-30-2008 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
01-27-2008 9:45 AM


You're here too!
What is your view on this topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-27-2008 9:45 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:15 PM Lemkin has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 122 of 162 (452614)
01-30-2008 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by tesla
01-30-2008 7:54 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
i like that, so if something cannot come from nothing, what did the universe come from?
A singularity. Read about it, singularity does not mean 'nothing'.
what did it look like before?
Nonsensical. I am sure ICANT can fill you in as to why. Now from my philisophical viewpoint... I don't know. I can imagine a few scenarios but your not really interested in my musings are you?
or can you ask this question yourself at all?
Sure I can. But I am perfectly capable of differentiating my philosophy from my scientific outlooks. (in this case, I am a work in progress and not 100% effective)
and leave it to be discovered by another scientist before you will believe it?
That depends on the viewpoint I wish to take. If I am to look at this from a scientific point of view then I am obligated to defer to a scientist to present me evidence in support of a particular viewpoint. If sufficient evidence comes about its possible that I may change my mind (if I can wrap my head around it)
Forgive me if I misinterpret but I get the feeling that you find the thought of waiting for something to be discovered before having a 'belief' as something to be reviled. Is this true? Is it logical?
ABE: Sorry I missed your post #116. I just noticed it now. I will address the nothingness/energy issue in my next post if you wish?
Edited by Vacate, : ABE missed a post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 7:54 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:16 PM Vacate has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 123 of 162 (452617)
01-30-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Lemkin
01-30-2008 8:09 PM


Re: You're here too!
It is generally not a good idea to ask a moderator or admin for his opinion on the topic of discussion. A moderator or admin is suppose to be impartial in order to maintain a fair discussion.
How would you like it if you enter a trial with the judge and jury all have already decided that you were guilty and therefore dismiss out of hand all your evidence for your innocence? coincidently, one of these evidence could be a confession of the real murderer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Lemkin, posted 01-30-2008 8:09 PM Lemkin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:23 PM teen4christ has not replied
 Message 145 by Lemkin, posted 01-31-2008 7:53 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 124 of 162 (452619)
01-30-2008 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Vacate
01-30-2008 8:13 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
A singularity. Read about it, singularity does not mean 'nothing'.
huh. well we agree on something here.
how about you explain what the singularity is to me ?
a singular energy?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Vacate, posted 01-30-2008 8:13 PM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:30 PM tesla has replied
 Message 132 by Vacate, posted 01-30-2008 8:42 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 125 of 162 (452620)
01-30-2008 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by teen4christ
01-30-2008 8:15 PM


Re: You're here too!
... oops.
Edited by tesla, : No reason given.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:15 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 126 of 162 (452624)
01-30-2008 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by tesla
01-30-2008 7:54 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
quote:
what did the universe come from?
Nobody knows.
quote:
did it look like before?
Other people have tried to explain this before, but I guess I'll take a stab at it.
This question doesn't make any sense because of the word "before" which implies time. Consider the following analogies.
If you are standing directly at the north pole, what is north of there?
If the road ends at exactly at point B, what does the road look like beyond point B?
If your life as a construction worker began 3 years ago, what was your life as a construction worker like before 3 years ago?
If Microsoft Company started in 1975, how much was the company making in profit in 1960?
As you've noticed, none of the above question have any sensible answer. We define north as the direction toward the north pole. There is no north from the north pole. No, the magnetic north pole does not count as the north pole.
If the road ends at point B, there is no road to speak of beyond this point.
If your life as a construction worker started 3 years ago, you didn't have a life as a construction worker before this point in time. The question is nonsensical.
Microsoft was founded in 1975. How could it have been making profits in 1960? Again, there's no answer to that question. The question itself doesn't deserve an answer.
So, let's look at your question. What did it look like before the BB. By definition, that was when time started. Time is linear and 1 directional. There is no such thing as negative time. Time started at T=0 and that's it. There was no "before". The question is nonsensical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 7:54 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:29 PM teen4christ has replied
 Message 146 by Lemkin, posted 01-31-2008 8:01 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 127 of 162 (452627)
01-30-2008 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by teen4christ
01-30-2008 8:25 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
This question doesn't make any sense because of the word "before" which implies time.
of course it does. and time is relevant is it not?
when we say what was before man on earth, do you not have an answer?
if there was no validity for the question "before" there would be no science that studies the past, to answer exactly that question.
if you say time has no relevance in the evolving of our universe, then you say there is no past at all.
i don't follow you.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:25 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:34 PM tesla has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 128 of 162 (452629)
01-30-2008 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by tesla
01-30-2008 8:16 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
quote:
how about you explain what the singularity is to me ?
As someone else here already pointed out, the singularity isn't a thing that you can pick up and examine. It's not a thing at all. It is simply where and when our current understanding of physics breaks down. Currently, we have no model that could accurately describe what goes on in this particular region of space-time. In other words, our current scientific knowledge isn't equipped to deal with something like infinite gravitational strength.
Until someone in the future developes a new model that could accurately describes what goes on in this region of space-time, we're just going to leave it alone and pretend like it's not there

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:16 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:33 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 129 of 162 (452630)
01-30-2008 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by teen4christ
01-30-2008 8:30 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
Until someone in the future developes a new model that could accurately describes what goes on in this region of space-time, we're just going to leave it alone and pretend like it's not there.
so..the answer is, something, yet science don't care to try to figure out what it is.
unless we apply what we do know to what it potentially is, how can you ever understand it?
Edited by tesla, : No reason given.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:30 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 130 of 162 (452631)
01-30-2008 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by tesla
01-30-2008 8:29 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
Did you not read my examples?
quote:
when we say what was before man on earth, do you not have an answer?
This question makes sense because there was time before the arrival of man on Earth.
But time starts at T=0, so the question of what was "before" T=0 makes no sense. There was no time before this point. It's like asking what's north of the north pole or how much you were making a year before you were born.
quote:
if there was no validity for the question "before" there would be no science that studies the past, to answer exactly that question.
I'm not saying any question with the word "before" in it is invalid. I'm saying this particular question of "what's before T=0?" makes no sense.
Say Main street ends at house number 2235. Beyond that is just a grass field. Do you have an answer to "what is main street like beyond house 2235?" There is no main street beyond house 2235. The question makes no sense. Just as the question "what is before T=0?" makes no sense. There's no answer to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:29 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:40 PM teen4christ has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 131 of 162 (452635)
01-30-2008 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by teen4christ
01-30-2008 8:34 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
ah now i see. thank you for clarification and forgive my lack of understanding!
so when you get to singularity, you mean that time had started.
so when time started something was at that time..with no time. so we have
singularity: timeless energy
i say energy, because the universe is energy, and nothing is real outside of energy, because if no energy, there's nothing there. nothing to measure, nothing to be.
it cannot be timeless "nothing"
so the singularity would have to be "something".
is this what you are saying?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:34 PM teen4christ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:46 PM tesla has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 132 of 162 (452637)
01-30-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by tesla
01-30-2008 8:16 PM


Re: Makes More Sense
how about you explain what the singularity is to me ? a singular energy?
I would suggest starting here for a much better explanation than I can provide. There are also several members who are much more qualified (and better worded).
I will however stick my neck out and take a stab at a few highlights.
  • Its not a 'singular energy', its all the energy of the universe focused at one point.
  • Its that point where relativity breaks down and the gravitational field becomes infinite.
  • For some reason its the reason science needs to merge quantum physics and relativity. (Ready for the chopping block on this one)
  • Its the beginning of time, T=0. Meaning there is no before.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 124 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:16 PM tesla has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 133 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:45 PM Vacate has not replied

      
    tesla
    Member (Idle past 1592 days)
    Posts: 1199
    Joined: 12-22-2007


    Message 133 of 162 (452638)
    01-30-2008 8:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 132 by Vacate
    01-30-2008 8:42 PM


    Re: Makes More Sense
    Its not a 'singular energy', its all the energy of the universe focused at one point.
    all the ENERGY of the universe, focused at ONE POINT.
    singluar energy that is timeless. because if two things are, time is relevent.
    Edited by tesla, : No reason given.

    keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
    ~parmenides

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 132 by Vacate, posted 01-30-2008 8:42 PM Vacate has not replied

      
    teen4christ
    Member (Idle past 5798 days)
    Posts: 238
    Joined: 01-15-2008


    Message 134 of 162 (452639)
    01-30-2008 8:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 131 by tesla
    01-30-2008 8:40 PM


    Re: Makes More Sense
    quote:
    i say energy, because the universe is energy, and nothing is real outside of energy, because if no energy, there's nothing there. nothing to measure, nothing to be.
    Sure, if you want to see it that way. The word "singularity" simply refers to where-when our current understanding of physics breaks down.
    It helps to see it this way. Suppose you open a door to a room that is totally dark. You can't see or hear or smell or feel anything from that room. You are completely clueless what is in there. So, for lack of a better term, you call it a dark room. "Dark" is not a thing. It just means you have no information to interpret what's in there.
    quote:
    so the singularity would have to be "something".
    is this what you are saying?
    I don't know if that's what I'm saying. It really depends on what you mean by "something". It would certainly not be "something" that you and I encounter each day.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:40 PM tesla has replied

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     Message 135 by tesla, posted 01-30-2008 8:49 PM teen4christ has not replied

      
    tesla
    Member (Idle past 1592 days)
    Posts: 1199
    Joined: 12-22-2007


    Message 135 of 162 (452641)
    01-30-2008 8:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 134 by teen4christ
    01-30-2008 8:46 PM


    Re: Makes More Sense
    I don't know if that's what I'm saying. It really depends on what you mean by "something". It would certainly not be "something" that you and I encounter each day.
    more to the the truth, if we did, we wouldn't recognize it. unless we know what to look for.
    which is why it should b further scrutinized.

    keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
    ~parmenides

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 134 by teen4christ, posted 01-30-2008 8:46 PM teen4christ has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by Vacate, posted 01-30-2008 8:52 PM tesla has replied

      
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