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Author Topic:   Atheist Frendly Q&A
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 110 (191207)
03-12-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mikehager
03-11-2005 3:03 PM


Re: An honest question
Hi, Mike. It is indeed a mystery as to why God does not deal with Satan directly and instead exacts judgement on the individuals.
God, (and yes, Mike He does exist) did not directly kill the enemies of the Israelites. He knew that there would be conflict since it was His chosen against the unenlightened masses, and perhaps the exterminated pagans were foreknown to have had to die, anyway.
We can't feel sorry for them IF it was foreknown that there was some way out for them now, could we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mikehager, posted 03-11-2005 3:03 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 110 (191214)
03-12-2005 8:18 PM


A question for Christians who do not accept a literal interpretation of Genesis:
If Jesus died to repay the sins of all those who accepted him, and human beings are born with sin due to the sin of Adam and Eve, and the events recorded in Genesis didn't literally happen as they are described, where did the sins that Jesus' death forgave come from? Does his death only repay sins committed by Christians during their own lives? Are people born tainted by sin?

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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 110 (191217)
03-12-2005 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Gary
03-12-2005 8:18 PM


The history of Jesus has several features. One is that he is symbolic of GOD's assurance of forgiveness for ALL mankind, those who are Christians and all others as well.
I don't think most Christian religions place must stock in original sin anymore. Hell, it's unneeded, we're all more than capable of making up for any lack of sin at the beginning.
But Jesus' life, death and resurrection is not a get out of jail free card. Nor is any belief in Jesus or profession of Christianity. So it gets a little more complicated at times. Actions speak louder than words.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 64 of 110 (191234)
03-12-2005 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by nator
03-12-2005 3:45 PM


Re: An honest question
Like I said, unbelievers generally ask too many questions and think too much to be content with pat answers from believers.
as i think jar said, believers often ask too few questions.
i prefer to do a little of both.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 65 of 110 (191237)
03-12-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
03-12-2005 6:00 PM


Re: An honest question
It is indeed a mystery as to why God does not deal with Satan directly and instead exacts judgement on the individuals.
well, follow the reasoning along for a second here instead of just saying "i dunno."
mikehager writes:
The character "Satan" is powerful enough in his own right to actually threaten your god? Wouldn't that make "God" something less then omnipotent?
mike is absolutely right. if hasatan can oppose yahweh, then yahweh obviously doesn't have everything under control. the more you look at it, the more that makes hasatan and yahweh equal in status. but hasatan is not a god, is he? and yahweh is called "god almighty" and "the most high" isn't he?
while most religious believers are ready to accept that god gave up a little omnipotence so man could have free will, polytheism is outright abhorent. and so hasatan must be entirely under the control of yahweh, right?
in fact, this is precisely the way most jewish people understand it. hasatan is the agent that makes choice meaningful, by providing alternatives and testing the hearts of men. his name means "adversary" in hebrew, but the implication is not adversary of god, but of men.
so why would god need to deal with satan? and more importantly, what would happen if he did? faith would become pointless, and christianity would collapse without its cornerstone.

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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6488 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 66 of 110 (191248)
03-13-2005 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
03-12-2005 6:00 PM


Re: An honest question
God, (and yes, Mike He does exist)
Sorry. If you're going to make a positive assertion like that, I'm going to have to ask for some proof or ask you to withdraw it. Saying "I believe God exists" is one thing. This is another.
and perhaps the exterminated pagans were foreknown to have had to die, anyway.
That's interesting. Do you not believe in free will?
Hi, Mike. It is indeed a mystery as to why God does not deal with Satan directly and instead exacts judgement on the individuals.
So, the Lord works in mysterious ways, does he? That's neat and simple. Isn't it nice how that stops questions from being asked?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 03-12-2005 6:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 03-13-2005 8:15 AM mikehager has replied

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 110 (191252)
03-13-2005 2:37 AM


I have a question, something that I have been wondering about for a while is, why does god even care? Assuming that god is an omnipotent being that created the entire universe(s?) Why would he devote even the smallest amount of attention to us? A gardener does not weep when one of his flowers dies, why would god care about the petty affairs of humans?

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 110 (191260)
03-13-2005 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rand Al'Thor
03-13-2005 2:37 AM


A gardener does not weep when one of his flowers dies, why would god care about the petty affairs of humans?
Do they weed and prune, prepare the soil, add nutrients not available, water?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 110 (191272)
03-13-2005 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by mikehager
03-13-2005 2:08 AM


mikehagar writes:
Do you not believe in free will?
Yes, and because of it, I believe that IF there were a way out for the ancients that died, they most certainly refused it. The way out for them would be to bow to Israel and acknowledge that they were wrong.
Am I too absolutist in my positive assertions?
So, the Lord works in mysterious ways, does he? That's neat and simple. Isn't it nice how that stops questions from being asked?
You can ask Him all of the questions that you want. He is much more a friendly and tolerant than I am. I am admittedly a Christian jerk sometimes! If I keep it up, perhaps He may smite me!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-13-2005 06:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by mikehager, posted 03-13-2005 2:08 AM mikehager has replied

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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6488 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 70 of 110 (191277)
03-13-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
03-13-2005 8:15 AM


Am I too absolutist in my positive assertions?
Yes, you were.
You can ask Him all of the questions that you want.
The sort of attitude where one accepts things like "god works in mysterious ways" stops believers from asking questions of themselves and theior religious "leaders", not of self reflection directed at the sky.
It's just on of many nice, easy "built ins" in Christianity to prevent questioning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 03-13-2005 8:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
Gary
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 110 (191301)
03-13-2005 4:25 PM


What significance does the story of Exodus in the Old Testament hold? Is it thought to be true for the most part, or is it completely made up, or somewhere in between? For example, in Exodus 12:37, the Bible mentions that the Jews numbered 600,000 men, not counting children. Is there any evidence that there were this many Jews ever enslaved in Egypt, or this many living in the Sinai Peninsula at any one time?
This message has been edited by Gary, 03-13-2005 16:29 AM

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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 110 (191308)
03-13-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Gary
03-13-2005 4:25 PM


What significance does the story of Exodus in the Old Testament hold?
Great question.
The story of the Exodus is a tale of the formation of something like a real Nation, and identity. It's the beginning of Nationhood, an identity other then just a religion.
Is it thought to be true for the most part, or is it completely made up, or somewhere in between?
There's always the possibility that part of it's true, but if so, the truth would not resemble the tale any more closely than Disney's filming of the Battle of New Orleans resembled the real one.
What is lacking is any evidence of the Exodus of a large number of people from Egypt, any indication that an Egyptian army was destroyed, any evidence of a large population anywhere in the area, and NO indication whatsoever of any major invading army taking over Canaan.
For example, in Exodus 12:37, the Bible mentions that the Jews numbered 600,000 men, not counting children. Is there any evidence that there were this many Jews ever enslaved in Egypt, or this many living in the Sinai Peninsula at any one time?
No. There is no evidence of a large number of Hebrew slaves in Egypt or of any mass Exodus of any kind.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Gary, posted 03-13-2005 4:25 PM Gary has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 73 of 110 (191370)
03-14-2005 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by nator
03-12-2005 8:31 AM


Re: An honest question
schraf writes:
Any time he gets backed into a corner, he claims that the argument has become "circular", which it really hasn't.
May be you haven't dealt with PG that much before, but I assure you this is his regular behavior. I've learned to ignore him most of the time, so... waste your time if you want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nator, posted 03-12-2005 8:31 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 74 of 110 (191408)
03-14-2005 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by coffee_addict
03-14-2005 12:08 AM


Re: An honest question
quote:
May be you haven't dealt with PG that much before, but I assure you this is his regular behavior. I've learned to ignore him most of the time, so... waste your time if you want.
Oh, I've dealt with him before, and I know it's a regular occurence.
I'm an eternal optimist, though!

This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 110 (191452)
03-14-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rand Al'Thor
03-13-2005 2:37 AM


quote:
A gardener does not weep when one of his flowers dies, why would god care about the petty affairs of humans?
A devoted pet owner DOES cry. I know I am answering these questions from the wrong side of the fence, but I think the answer is quite obvious. In the Bible, we humans are described as the "Children of God". The Bible sets up the relationship between God and humans, and that Bible says that God looks at us like a Father looks at his Children. Even Jesus told of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, furthering the description of this relationship.

This message is a reply to:
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