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Author Topic:   Because The Bible Tells Me So
macaroniandcheese 
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Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 46 of 111 (388821)
03-08-2007 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Doddy
03-01-2007 9:10 PM


Completely useless strategy in game theory. Doesn't work - you get royally screwed. However, I can't see it contradicted anywhere in the New Testament.

actually, no. the cooperate-iterate model always produces the best result.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1541 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 47 of 111 (388822)
03-08-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
03-06-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Absolutely. The English language is not nearly as sophisticated or in depth as, say, Greek. And because their language was so much more expansive, this is why we need a good concordance to accurately translate the meaning of any given word.

that's crap. we need a concordance because different languages are used differently and greek is not a code for english. it's the way greek people decided to interface with their world. it's no more complex, it's just different.


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Phat
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Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 48 of 111 (388830)
03-08-2007 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
03-06-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Innerrant or Inane?
Jar writes:

The only way to knowledge is through understanding of the world and universe we live in.


knowl•edge- n 1 : understanding gained by actual experience 2 : range of information 3 : clear perception of truth 4 : something learned and kept in the mind
Two questions:
1)Is knowledge gained through experience or perception?
2) How do we judge whether or not a scripture or sentence from any book an understanding of truth or just an opinion of another?

The Bible addresses wisdom:

wis•dom n1 : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : knowledge; also : insight 2 : good sense : judgment 3 : a wise attitude or course of action

NIV writes:

Prov 1:7- The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

This presupposes the Lord, of course. An a-priori argument.

Nemesis writes:

I no longer know what it means to say whether the Bible is inerrant. I always understood the "inerrancy of the scriptures" to mean that it is free from textual error. I don't believe that it is free from error. However, if it means that the Bible is the true and inspired Word of God, then I am an inerrantist.

Clusty Info writes:

Biblical inerrancy is the view that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and is in every detail infallible and without error in the original autographs. This view was ably expressed in 1978 in the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, an interdenominational statement of evangelical scholars and leaders to defend biblical inerrancy against the trend toward neo-orthodox and theologically liberal conceptions of scripture. It proclaims: "The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church." Article XII states: "We affirm that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit."

On a more practical level, I am reading an excellent book on addictions and how the Bible addresses them. To me, the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy is too all or nothing.

The book, Addictions: A Banquet in the Grave, states that "what really guides the thinking of many people who struggle with drugs or alcohol is a syncretistic set of beliefs that combines AA, pop psychology,pieces of scripture, and miscellaneous features of American culture." The author emphasizes practical theology as the guideline--in that one needs to ask themselves how scripture addresses the problems facing us today.

Ringo writes:

You also haven't made clear what the difference is between the "theological perspective" and the "philosophical perspective".

The philosophical perspective questions everything. No fundamental beliefs are allowed to form. Theology takes a stand. Belief is expressed and everything else is compared and contrasted with the belief.
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ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 49 of 111 (388851)
03-08-2007 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
03-08-2007 5:57 AM


Re: Innerrant or Inane?
Interesting. When I ask you to clarify the distinction between philosophical perspective and theological perspective, you answer twice. Do two obscurites make a clarity? :)

Phat writes:

The philosophical perspective questions everything. No fundamental beliefs are allowed to form.

I think "fundamental" beliefs are allowed to form.
They just don't appear a priori fully formed.

Theology takes a stand. Belief is expressed and everything else is compared and contrasted with the belief.

You describe the difference between a theological approach to thinking and a more generic philosophical approach. But that doesn't address the idea of God's wisdom versus human wisdom.

Your definition of theology seems to presuppose that we "know" what to "believe" - we decide what to trust. The question is: how can we know what "God's wisdom" is? How do we decide which version of God's wisdom to believe?

"Because the Bible tells me so" is neither a logical answer nor a satisfying one.

The OP seems to suggest that there are some things in the Bible that "make sense" and that is why we believe them. God's-wisdom-is-not-our-wisdom is not one of those sensible things.


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Phat
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Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 50 of 111 (388860)
03-08-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
03-08-2007 10:21 AM


Re: Innerrant or Inane?
Ringo writes:

Your definition of theology seems to presuppose that we "know" what to "believe" - we decide what to trust. The question is: how can we know what "God's wisdom" is? How do we decide which version of God's wisdom to believe?

Keyword: Decide. The wonderful thing about being human is that we have the ability, the obligation, and usually the desire to make our own decisions in life. Some Calvinists would assert that we are incapable of choosing Gods way without His help. That book that I'm reading says that "..Sometimes it is not so much that we are poorly taught or unaware of what Scripture says, but it is that we don't want to believe the truth we already have. Even though we know the truth, we don't always want it to guide our lives."

The book goes on to use an a-priori truth that Jesus Is Lord. Even though many Christians embrace it, sing it, and taught it...throwing in an occasional amen for good measure, it was not practical theology when their desires conflicted with the Scripture.

Another example would be a husband who says he loves his wife, but by his actions actually loves flirtatious work relationships or even pornographic habits.

Jim may sing "Jesus shall reign", but his drinking indicates that he wants Jesus to reign only when his desires and God's commands do not conflict.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 3566 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 51 of 111 (388872)
03-08-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by macaroniandcheese
03-08-2007 12:36 AM


brennakimi writes:

actually, no. the cooperate-iterate model always produces the best result.

Actually still no. The cooperative-iterate model only works when both parties agree to cooperate. There is not much gaming that can go on in that case. But in real-life, we don't have everyone cooperating either, so you still get royally screwed often when you give and don't get back.


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NosyNed
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Posts: 8802
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 52 of 111 (388875)
03-08-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by anastasia
03-08-2007 12:55 PM


The Model
The cooperative-iterate model only works when both parties agree to cooperate.

It's not clear that you know waht the C-I model is. Could you explain your understanding of it?

Also you seem to be baseing the above statement on some sort of personal experience ("you still get...") and the end of your statement "and don't get back" also suggests that you don't know what the model is saying. Can you explain why you think the model only works as you describe or why you say "actually still no"?


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 3566 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 53 of 111 (388881)
03-08-2007 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NosyNed
03-08-2007 1:23 PM


Re: The Model
I don't know all the particulars Ned. Maybe I jumped the gun in saying that brenna is wrong about the models.

I only mean to say that cooperative altruistic behavior is proved to be beneficial, but it isn't always the best game strategy for one player to be altruistic and not the other. I was being redundant in saying that cooperation must be cooperation. In religious belief, you must be altruistic regardless of what you expect from the other, so it would be a weak 'game strategy' in survival if you know the other isn't going to cooperate.


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NosyNed
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Posts: 8802
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 54 of 111 (388882)
03-08-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by anastasia
03-08-2007 2:17 PM


Re: The Model
Well, I think you are right in one part.

I don't know all the particulars Ned.

In fact it appears you don't understand the overall concept of the model either. Another name given (used for a winning computer game strategy) is "tit-for-tat". The "iterative" part of the name is another clue. The model is not at all one cooperating and the other not.


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ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 55 of 111 (388884)
03-08-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
03-08-2007 11:50 AM


Re: Innerrant or Inane?
Phat writes:

Even though many Christians embrace it, sing it, and taught it...throwing in an occasional amen for good measure, it was not practical theology when their desires conflicted with the Scripture.

As I've asked you before, how do we even know what The Scripture™ is, in terms of God's wisdom? You're arbitrarily choosing the Judeo-Christian tradition and then you're arbitrarily choosing a Protestant version of The Judeo-Christian Scripture™. The question still remains: how do you decide? How do you convince yourself that you have an inkling of a clue what God's will and wisdom is?

How do you know the real God doesn't want husbands to spread their genes around?

Where does the wisdom that "a good husband is faithful to his wife" really come from? Aren't you really deciding what is "right" first and then projecting your decision onto God?


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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 488
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 56 of 111 (388885)
03-08-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2007 10:44 AM


Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
Why are you so stuck on your idea that foolishness must equal false? Its like you're TRYING to make the passage more confusing than it actually is.

If someone were to start a new topic thread with an opening post that began: "The theory of evolution is total foolishness....", would you conclude that this person believes the ToE to be valid, just limited to some extent in its compass? I would conclude that he is arguing that the theory is false.


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 57 of 111 (388886)
03-08-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by AnswersInGenitals
03-08-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
If someone were to start a new topic thread with an opening post that began: "The theory of evolution is total foolishness....",

Allow me to strike the word "total" from the situation. I think it only adds confusion.

would you conclude that this person believes the ToE to be valid, just limited to some extent in its compass?

Actually, yes I would. I would expect that the person did not think that the theory was false, but that it did not descibe reality in its totality. That the theory missed something extra but was accurate within itself.

For example, the poster might think that God had a hand in evolution and that the ToE was accurately descibing how God did it. And since the ToE leaves god out of it, then that person would be calling it foolish in that it totally missed God entirely.

I would conclude that he is arguing that the theory is false.

Then you would be wrong :D


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ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 58 of 111 (388888)
03-08-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
03-08-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
CatholicScientist writes:

I would expect that the person did not think that the theory was false, but that it did not descibe reality in its totality.

I think you're being disingenuous. Around here, we see people saying that "ToE is foolishness" all the time - and they nearly always mean it's false.


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 59 of 111 (388889)
03-08-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
03-08-2007 3:37 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
I think you're being disingenuous. Around here, we see people saying that "ToE is foolishness" all the time - and they nearly always mean it's false.

Well nonetheless, I would still contend that they are using the word improperly.


Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"

He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 60 of 111 (388896)
03-08-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by New Cat's Eye
03-08-2007 3:40 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
CatholicScientist writes:

I would still contend that they are using the word improperly.

Your contention is noted. However, most of us are using the English language as is, straight out of the box - not your peculiar personal dialect. In plain English, the word "foolishness" does not have positive connotations.

Somebody, I think anastasia, has already mentioned the Greek word translated as "foolishness". Here's what the almighty Strong has to say:

quote:
G3472 μωρία
mōria mo-ree'-ah
From G3474; silliness, that is, absurdity: - foolishness.

quote:
G3474 μωρός
mōros mo-ros'
Probably form the base of G3466; dull or stupid (as if shut up), that is, heedless, (morally) blockhead, (apparently) absurd: - fool (-ish, X -ishness).

I contend that "foolish" means foolish - not incomplete.


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