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Author Topic:   Because The Bible Tells Me So
New Cat's Eye
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From: near St. Louis
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Message 61 of 111 (388898)
03-08-2007 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by ringo
03-08-2007 4:04 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
Your contention is noted. However, most of us are using the English language as is, straight out of the box - not your peculiar personal dialect.

Aren't we talking typing about the Bible though?

In plain English, the word "foolishness" does not have positive connotations.

I don't think it has positive connotations, I just think that it does NOT mean "false".

I contend that "foolish" means foolish - not incomplete.

What about in the quote in question? Give us your interpretation.


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ringo
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Message 62 of 111 (388901)
03-08-2007 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
03-08-2007 4:13 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
Catholic Scientist writes:

Aren't we talking typing about the Bible though?

Which is why I showed that the Greek word means "foolishness" too.

I don't think it has positive connotations, I just think that it does NOT mean "false".

It means "beyond false", "false to the point of being stupid".

What about in the quote in question? Give us your interpretation.

As I said early in the thread, I think the phrase is meaningless unless we know exactly what God's wisdom is. Paul claimed he knew, but based on his writings, I'm not convinced that he did.


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New Cat's Eye
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Message 63 of 111 (388905)
03-08-2007 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
03-08-2007 4:28 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
Which is why I showed that the Greek word means "foolishness" too.

IMO, WRT the quote, I think foolishness means negligible.

It means "beyond false", "false to the point of being stupid".

But still false...I think that's wrong.

As I said early in the thread

:o oh, sorry...

I think the phrase is meaningless unless we know exactly what God's wisdom is.

What if we set God's wisdom as omniscience? Then what do you think it means? What about for something very near but not quite omniscience (you know what I mean?)?

If the magnitude of the value of God's wisdom is infinite, then whatever value we are at is negligible (foolishness) compared to God's but that doesn't mean that we are wrong (false) in our wisdom.

Even if we don't set it at infinite, whatever value we assume god has, it is probably high enough to render ours as negligible. Which is what I think the point of the quote is. I don't think it means that our wisdom is false, do you? (realizing you think its meaningless).


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ringo
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Message 64 of 111 (388908)
03-08-2007 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by New Cat's Eye
03-08-2007 4:39 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
Catholic Scientist writes:

What if we set God's wisdom as omniscience?

I think omniscience is a useless concept too, and for the same reason.

If the magnitude of the value of God's wisdom is infinite, then whatever value we are at is negligible (foolishness) compared to God's but that doesn't mean that we are wrong (false) in our wisdom.

If human wisdom is all we have, how can it be negligible? The "God's wisdom" that we are talking about is strictly hypothetical unless it becomes human wisdom.

If anything, "God's wisdom" is negligible because we don't know what it is. In the same sense, electrons are negligible unless we figure out how to use them.


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
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Message 65 of 111 (388910)
03-08-2007 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
03-08-2007 4:53 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
If human wisdom is all we have, how can it be negligible?

When compared to the magnitude of god's, presumed, wisdom.

The "God's wisdom" that we are talking about is strictly hypothetical unless it becomes human wisdom.

/nod

If anything, "God's wisdom" is negligible because we don't know what it is.

Yeah...in practicality :rolleyes:

lol


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ringo
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Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 66 of 111 (388911)
03-08-2007 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
03-08-2007 5:09 PM


Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
Catholic Scientist writes:

If human wisdom is all we have, how can it be negligible?

When compared to the magnitude of god's, presumed, wisdom.

"Presumed" wisdom is irrelevant, since it is human wisdom doing the presuming.

For all we know, God might be an idiot savant who can create wonderful universes but can't tie His own shoes.


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macaroniandcheese 
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Message 67 of 111 (388912)
03-08-2007 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by anastasia
03-08-2007 2:17 PM


Re: The Model
the cooperate-iterate model is one possible solution to the prisoner's dilema game theory problem. in this solution, you cooperate the first turn, and then continue to cooperate in each iteration.

yes, if you cooperate and the partner betrays, you lose and they win five points. but if you both cooperate, you both win three points--more than half of the betray booty.

however, given the rational actor model (on which game theory is predicated) states that an actor only betrays when they fear betrayal by their opponent. so. if you demonstrate a willingness to cooperate, then your partner will cooperate.

the importance to this game is the ITERATE which means repeat. this means you have a series of matches and a chance to demonstrate a pattern. now. in real life, it is possible that an antagonistic partner would take advantage of a pattern of cooperation. however, being antagonistic tends to get you bombed. further, if your opponent demonstrates a pattern of betrayal, you can also betray so that, while you still lose, your opponent doesn't win. also, one point is better than none.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


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NosyNed
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Message 68 of 111 (388920)
03-08-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by macaroniandcheese
03-08-2007 5:24 PM


Re: The Model
You should add:

In a more real-life situation there are many players iterating their interactions. That is what squeezes out the non-cooperators.


This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
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Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 69 of 111 (388922)
03-08-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by NosyNed
03-08-2007 7:17 PM


Re: The Model
yes, that too. there is no bilateral anything anymore.
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 3565 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 70 of 111 (388927)
03-08-2007 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by macaroniandcheese
03-08-2007 5:24 PM


Re: The Model
brennakimi writes:

the importance to this game is the ITERATE which means repeat. this means you have a series of matches and a chance to demonstrate a pattern. now. in real life, it is possible that an antagonistic partner would take advantage of a pattern of cooperation. however, being antagonistic tends to get you bombed. further, if your opponent demonstrates a pattern of betrayal, you can also betray so that, while you still lose, your opponent doesn't win. also, one point is better than none.

Yes, sorry, I should not have said that you were wrong. What I should have said is that altruism doesn't always equal gain in real life, as that depends somewhat on the opposite player's cooperation, but in Christianity, the strategy must stay regardless.


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AdminPhat
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Message 71 of 111 (388934)
03-09-2007 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by macaroniandcheese
03-08-2007 5:24 PM


Re: The Model
You people are putting my topic off topic! :mad: Knock it off!



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    macaroniandcheese 
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    Message 72 of 111 (388960)
    03-09-2007 11:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by AdminPhat
    03-09-2007 3:52 AM


    Re: The Model
    just clarifying. i'm quite done.
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    New Cat's Eye
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    Joined: 01-27-2005
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    Message 73 of 111 (388961)
    03-09-2007 12:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
    03-08-2007 5:15 PM


    Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
    "Presumed" wisdom is irrelevant, since it is human wisdom doing the presuming.

    For all we know, God might be an idiot savant who can create wonderful universes but can't tie His own shoes.

    Well, if we're talking about a quote from the Bible, then we have an idea about which god we're talking about and what his qualifties can be assumed to be.


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    ringo
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    Message 74 of 111 (388966)
    03-09-2007 1:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
    03-09-2007 12:06 PM


    Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
    Catholic Scientist writes:

    Well, if we're talking about a quote from the Bible, then we have an idea about which god we're talking about and what his qualifties can be assumed to be.

    You can "pre"sume or "as"sume anything you want, but it's still a human presumption or a human assumption. It's human wisdom about what may or may not be God's wisdom.

    There can not be any meaningful comparison between our wisdom and God's wisdom unless we know what God's wisdom is. And how can we know what God's wisdom is if our wisdom is so stunted?

    "God's wisdom is not our wisdom" disproves itself.


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    Phat
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    Message 75 of 111 (389033)
    03-10-2007 10:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
    03-09-2007 1:08 PM


    Re: Confused in California (and probably a little foolish).
    Ringo writes:

    There can not be any meaningful comparison between our wisdom and God's wisdom unless we know what God's wisdom is. And how can we know what God's wisdom is if our wisdom is so stunted?

    I dunno...its kinda like a talent scout knows talent. hey can just smell it. Im not sure if we are programmed to be in touch with Gods wisdom or not, though.

    Not everyone is a talent scout! ;)


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