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Author Topic:   Where Faith Comes From in the "moderate" Christian religions
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 61 of 132 (513350)
06-28-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Peg
06-28-2009 6:36 AM


Re:
In the 5th century BCE, the Greek philosopher Empedocles believed in spontaneous generation, gradual evolution of organisms and survival of the fittest. Not long after that, Aristotle taught that "man is the highest point of one long and continuous ascent." They started the idea of evolution and it certainly wasnt based on the scientific method then, nor do I believe it is today.
As has been said before ad infinitum, evolution has no discrimination other than adaption (much to the consternation of tribalists). Therefore, Aristotle didn't know, or even begin to propose any TOE, as understood by anyone with remote familiarity with the works of Darwin.
Also, I am curious as to what qualifies you to be the judge of what constitutes the scientific method as to my knowledge, you have yet to admit you made a mistake when declaring that it took an immense amount of energy (as opposed to a mere spark) to turn hydrogen and oxygen to water.
To never admit a mistake is a severe character flaw, to actually be proud of ignorance and revel in this state should be considered a mental disease. Perhaps the upcoming DSM 5 will mention this form of mental illness.
Edited by anglagard, : add 'form of'

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 6:36 AM Peg has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 62 of 132 (513351)
06-28-2009 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Peg
06-28-2009 6:36 AM


Re:
In the 5th century BCE, the Greek philosopher Empedocles believed in spontaneous generation, gradual evolution of organisms and survival of the fittest. Not long after that, Aristotle taught that "man is the highest point of one long and continuous ascent." They started the idea of evolution and it certainly wasnt based on the scientific method then, nor do I believe it is today.
You believe a lot of stupid things. Your beliefs are not evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 6:36 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 7:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 63 of 132 (513352)
06-28-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
06-28-2009 7:22 AM


Re:
No, my beliefs are not evidence, im merely stating a fact
the fact is that the idea of evolution began with greek philosophers who did not use science as a basis for the belief
the idea has 'evolved' over time to what we have today. When it was rehashed by Darwin it caused a outrage in religious circles because it clearly was in conflict with the idea that God had created each species.
stupid i know, but a fact none the less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-28-2009 7:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 06-28-2009 7:57 AM Peg has replied
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-28-2009 10:56 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-28-2009 10:14 PM Peg has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 64 of 132 (513354)
06-28-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Peg
06-28-2009 7:39 AM


Re:
Peg writes:
stupid i know, but a fact none the less.
Perhaps you, as so many others have done, find a way to view the Bible in the broad and intended meaning of the basic message as opposed to some puny, contradictory, paper 'godlet' that must never be thought about other than superficially.
I am still puzzled by your dogmatism. Why do you hate science and democracy? Is it family, the local tribe, or has some charismatic come between you and God?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 7:39 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 8:15 AM anglagard has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 65 of 132 (513355)
06-28-2009 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by anglagard
06-28-2009 7:57 AM


Re:
anglagard writes:
I am still puzzled by your dogmatism. Why do you hate science and democracy? Is it family, the local tribe, or has some charismatic come between you and God?
dogmatism?
i hate science and democracy???
im sure evolution doesnt cover ALL the sciences. just because i dont believe in evolution doesnt mean i dont believe in other sciences.
And where does democracy come into it??? Am i undemocratic because i dont believe in evolution???
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 06-28-2009 7:57 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by anglagard, posted 06-28-2009 8:39 AM Peg has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 66 of 132 (513358)
06-28-2009 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Peg
06-28-2009 8:15 AM


Re:
Peg writes:
dogmatism?
i hate science and democracy???
im sure evolution doesnt cover ALL the sciences. just because i dont believe in evolution doesnt mean i dont believe in other sciences.
And where does democracy come into it??? Am i undemocratic because i dont believe in evolution???
Ignorance of history, like ignorance of science, is a curable condition. Perhaps a new thread concerning the breadth and depth of the enlightenment would be appropriate. I consider it a topic in and of itself worth considering but if not severely narrowed, could explode beyond the narrow confines of the rules of this forum. Perhaps there may be a way, I'll see what I can do.
Also, please remember, like they said in the Godfather, it's business, not personal.
Edited by anglagard, : se instead of see, am i conjuring a roman?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 8:15 AM Peg has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 67 of 132 (513363)
06-28-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Peg
06-28-2009 6:54 AM


Re: Faith Done Me Wrong
God is good
But God was glib
When He made Eve
From Adam's rib
Edited by lyx2no, : One too many "o"s in God.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 6:54 AM Peg has not replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 68 of 132 (513370)
06-28-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Peg
06-28-2009 6:54 AM


Re: Faith Done Me Wrong
But if you dont think evolution contradicts the biblical claim that God created life, and man, please explain it to me.
If evolution means that we've descended from a common ancestor, how does this NOT contradict the biblical claim that God create the man in his image? I dont get it.
Sure it contradicts it. So much the worse for the bible.
If many years of careful investigation by a great many scientists shows something, and some old book written thousands of years ago by ignorant savages shows something else, is it sensible to go with the old book?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 6:54 AM Peg has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 132 (513394)
06-28-2009 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Peg
06-28-2009 7:39 AM


Re:
No, my beliefs are not evidence, im merely stating a fact
the fact is that the idea of evolution began with greek philosophers who did not use science as a basis for the belief
the idea has 'evolved' over time to what we have today. When it was rehashed by Darwin it caused a outrage in religious circles because it clearly was in conflict with the idea that God had created each species.
stupid i know, but a fact none the less.
Actually, yes, this is true. The concept of evolution, though far less refined than Darwin's concept, was thrown around in Cynic and Stoic philosophy circles. Aristotle rejected the idea, though he did believe certain animals spontaneously generated out of mud.
The idea eventually faded in to obscurity, but the idea definitely did not begin or end with Darwin.

"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Peg, posted 06-28-2009 7:39 AM Peg has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 70 of 132 (513434)
06-28-2009 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
06-27-2009 9:03 AM


Sigh of exasperation
Peg,
THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF LIFE(edited to replace species with life). IT DEALS SOLELY WITH THE ORIGIN AND EVOLUTION OF SPECIES.
Do you get it now? Does it make any sense at all that creation and evolution are not even the same subject?
Would you at least try to understand what evolution is about before you make these ignorant uneducated, uninformed comments?
No. I didn't think you would.
Edited by Theodoric, : See notes above

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 06-27-2009 9:03 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by lyx2no, posted 06-28-2009 8:10 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 74 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-28-2009 8:19 PM Theodoric has replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 71 of 132 (513438)
06-28-2009 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Theodoric
06-28-2009 7:08 PM


Re: Sigh of exasperation
THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES.
I think you're going to have a hard time convincing Peg of this in light of this little gem.
I think your exasperation is getting to you.
Edited by lyx2no, : Typo.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 06-28-2009 7:08 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 06-28-2009 8:14 PM lyx2no has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 72 of 132 (513439)
06-28-2009 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by lyx2no
06-28-2009 8:10 PM


Re: Sigh of exasperation
Yes I misspoke. Meant to say the origin of life.
I will edit my post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by lyx2no, posted 06-28-2009 8:10 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by lyx2no, posted 06-28-2009 8:16 PM Theodoric has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 73 of 132 (513440)
06-28-2009 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Theodoric
06-28-2009 8:14 PM


Re: Sigh of exasperation
I will edit my post
And ruin my fun.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 06-28-2009 8:14 PM Theodoric has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 74 of 132 (513441)
06-28-2009 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Theodoric
06-28-2009 7:08 PM


Origin of the species vs. origin of life (pretty damn off-topic)
THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES.
Getting sloppy here? I would think you meant "life" rather than "species".
Isn't Darwin's book "The Origin of the Species"? I would say that the theory of (biological) evolution has everything to do with the origin of species.
ALL THAT SAID, THIS IS PRETTY FAR OFF-TOPIC. PEOPLE, TIME TO REVIEW THE TOPIC TITLE, MESSAGE ONE, AND THE OTHER EARLIEST MESSAGES OF THIS TOPIC.
"Do not ask what the board administrators can do for you. Ask what you can do to keep topic messages relevant to the topic theme".
Or something like that.
Moose
Added by edit: Mostly "never mind. others beat me to it". Still, how about getting on topic?
Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 06-28-2009 7:08 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 06-28-2009 9:00 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 75 of 132 (513452)
06-28-2009 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Minnemooseus
06-28-2009 8:19 PM


Re: Origin of the species vs. origin of life (pretty damn off-topic)
It is necessary to show the falsehoods others post even if they are not directly on topic. The purpose of bringing this subject up is to show that Peg continues to equate origin of life with evolution and refuses to acknowledge the disingenuousness of using them interchangeably.
In Message 4
quote:
Even those who dont believe in God/gods, they do believe in something that caused our being, ie evolution
  —Peg
I feel it is right and proper to point out specious and intellectually bankrupt arguments.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-28-2009 8:19 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-28-2009 9:19 PM Theodoric has not replied

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