Rejection of the Charasmatics and Biblical Literalism

I know what you mean, but I am playing the skeptic in this discussion and asking us as believers to seperate the necessary behavior from the un necessary behavior.I have religious friends who can cuss and drink one minute and then in all solemity prostrate themselves on the altar and weep and wail for Gods mercy.Am I to doubt their closeness with God?Yet by the same token, I know Christians who never attend church and yet who profess a belief in and relationship with God. They have stable behavior. Am I to question their salvation?

Yes and no. There are several verses of Scripture that deals with this. I will try and remember where they are located. One of them, (I know its in Matthew, but I'm not sure exactly where it is), but Peter, I believe, comes racing up to Jesus and tells Him that these people are doing good works, but it wasn't in the Name of Jesus. And Jesus tells Peter (paraphrase, not verbatim), "Why are you going to stop people from doing good whether it was in my Name or not? All good comes from My Father." Essentially, Jesus was explaining what we already know from the OT, that everyone has been given understanding in their heart for what is good and just. Some people make the choice to dishonor their first inclinations, but nonetheless, we all are bestowed an innate sense of the Father's will. Its a matter of whether or not our flesh will overcome the conscience. Do they know exactly where this comes from? no, I don't think so. But when we see the boy drowning in the river, we have two thoughts that come to mind instantaneously. One is the thought that this boy must be saved. I have to save his life. The other thought is, if I attempt to save this boy, I might die n the process. It is a matter of which will win. The other verse comes to us from Paul."All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." -Romans 2:12-16 I believe so, at least to a degree. Anyone that goes out there and feeds and clothes the destitute, treats people with the utmost respect, and does marvelous works will be regarded by God as being righteous. And indeed, there are many pagans who do not know God outright who do wonderful works. But as the Scriptures say over and over again, it isn't doing the works that is going to make you a good person, it is what goes on in the inward man. Is he feeding the hungry because he wants the approval of men or is he feeding the hungry because his heart aches for the hungry man? this is what God judges. But I believe wholeheartedly that these strong inclinations are God's way of reaching that person. And once that person who deos these things in accordance to the perfect will of God, once they hear the gospel and realize where it comes from, they will at once accept Jesus. This is what I believe. But even 'nice' people do bad things. Even 'nice' people need salvation.

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

Interesting phraseology.A "kid" is a baby goat - and as we all know, the goats will be punished and the sheep will be rewarded. Makes me wonder why people would willingly call themselves "God's Kids". The "will of God" (the Gardener) is that we produce good fruit, not that we take the bible literally or speak in tongues. People who focus on those things often neglect the production of good fruit.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

You missed the third option: feeding the hungry because they are hungry.It isn't all about you.
God cares more about the hungry man's stomach than He does about your heart.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

nemesis_juggernaut An excellent quote and absolutely of no value to me since it does not explain how your wife is capable of knowing that God is pipelined to this person.What exactly do you use to determine the fruits to be correct unless you have, a priori, established a standard by which to differentiate good from bad fruit?

No worries. Many unbelievers are watching. There 165 'visitors' right online in EvC. There are countless people who watch our dialogue. Unbeknownst to the believer and unbeliever, our words wil gretaly impact what they come to believe in their own heart. I speak to them as much as I am speaking to the person that I'm currently addresing. Aren't we all creatures of duplicity? Do not all men falter and all? As David said, there are none that are righteous, no ,not even one. Only the spotless Lamb. This does not give us a licence to engage in sin. There is no one that puts this dichotomy more eloquently than Paul. I cuss when I stub my toe. I'm in the wrong. I'm not teetotaller. I drink on occasion. The Lord warns of us excess. But this is where every man is different. For some people, they can drink nominally. However, for some people, they cannot have strong drink because they are proone to it. We all have our serious weaknesses that we must always abstain from. Drinking isn't the sin. Its what can manifest itself from strong drink. We can be given over to baser appetites when in excess. There isn't some magical formula that is going to tell us who 'truly' is saved and who truly isn't. Even the strongest believer is prone to sin. This is why Jesus told us that by their fruits we will know them. Their disposition should be obvious in their nature. Nobody can hide their true self for very long, though we all wear masks. We are either ugly or bueatiful on the other side of that mask. This is why we must always be on our gaurd, spiritually, because we are all 'seeds' being scattered along the path. Some grow and some don't. Some grow quickly but are then choked. Some wither instantly. And still others fall on good soil where they produce a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirty times what was sown in.Our savior has a Triune character, but so does our enemy. We have a threefold enemy in the Flesh, in the Accuser, and the World. We are always prone to this, and it would be well for every man, women ,and child to be aware of this.

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." -Matthew 6:1-3 The second option covers your third option. The first man feeds the second man because he's hungry. That means it isn't about the first man. Because the first man placed the second man in a higher regard than himself, God will count it as righteousness. As far as God caring more about food than the heart, we shall let Jesus tell us that answer:"do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

​

And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." -Matthew 6:25-34

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

As I stated elsewhere, there is no magical formula to determine this. I assume you understand that you can know when someone is pretending to be something they are not. This ability is refined even more for those who seek discernment. You might not be able to tell, but she is able, and that ability comes not from her own volition, but from God.

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

nemesis-juggernaut I have been fooled before and I am sure that you and anyone you care to introduce me to can also be fooled. That is not a difficult thing to perform at all. Really? Just how discerning do you think you are? Does your discernment come from God? If yes then can we safely assume that your discernment would be 100%? How could we test this in open forum? I have to disregard your assesment here since, I am sure you will agree, it is heavily biased. However, is your wife's high level of discernment testable and ,if no, why not?

Well, that's not what you said before. You said that the first man fed the second man because the first man's heart ached. The third option is feeding the hungry for the same reason you feed yourself - not to alleviate heart-ache. Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, not more than ourselves. Putting people on different levels is the source of the problem, not the solution. Apparently you missed the first part of your own quote:

quote:

---

"do not worry about YOUR life, what you will eat or drink...."

---

Jesus was saying don't worry about your day-to-day needs - God will take care of you. It wasn't intended as an escape clause from loving your neighbour.Let's let Jesus really tell us that answer:

quote:

---

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

---

No mention whatsoever of what was in their hearts - only what they had done for their fellow man.-------------Now, which way did the topic go?

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Yes, but you can quickly find out who is full bull manure and who is legitimate. I'm not here to judge myself. I can tell you that there are people alot more discerning than I. A revelation coming from God does not mean that God divulges everything He knows to the person. If you don't believe how some people have the ability to hear God then let that be on your head. You have to first believe in God in order to hear God. It may seem terribly unfair to you that belief comes before proof, rather than the standard proof before belief, but that is how God operates. I can't do anything about that. Is someone's good judgement able to be tested or quantified? No. So why would this be any different?

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

The man's heart ached out of concern for the famished brother. Where's the ambiguity? I'll accept that answer better than my own.As far as God caring more about food than the heart, we shall let Jesus tell us that answer.... Who said anything about that? When did I even allude that was some sort of escape clause?

quote:

---

:Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

---

The verse I provded shows beyond all doubt that doing things for the wrong motivation is far less the point than doing them out of a genuine concern. I think we understand this principle well, like men who do their good deeds in front of cameras but don't really care about anyone other than themselves.

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

Alleviating one's own heartache is still a selfish act.As I said, it isn't all about you. If your aching heart is your motivation, that is no more noble than self-aggrandizement. Bottom line: your brother's un-famishment is what matters - not your motivation. Not at all. The verses you provided refer to your needs, not somebody else's. The verses I provided show beyond all doubt that your actions toward others are what count. But it's still better to do good deeds in front of the cameras than not to do good deeds at all.-------------Unless you can link this discussion to the topic somehow, we really are going to have to take it elsewhere.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

If that's the case then no good deed shall ever come of anything. Feeling good about an action is what follows, its a gift, and God has intended it to be that way. God gives us gifts for our pleasure. Its only man that makes the gift so nasty. One must first understand what goodness is in order to do an act of goodness, otherwise, it would be as arbitrary as calling tying our shoes a good work. This is a horribly asinsine argument. I suspect you already know that. What are you in want of Ringo? Would it serve you better that there is no meaning to anything; that we are all clusters of molecules on some purposeless course of nothingness? Isn't that very belief a way to take the ache out of one's own heart? Is that selfish? Is that sticking your head in a hole in the ground, pretending that there is no meaning to anything that we do? I don't know a single soul who does something nice just to remove the pangs of guilt. The guilt is only there to tell us that we are in trouble. That's what the conscience is for. Just as nerve endings were designed to tell us that we are in danger physically, so also the conscience serves as a caveat to matters of emotional and spiritual well-being. But must not something more laudable be behind the guilt? Why should such an emotion even exist in a capricious world of non-order? Its a two-fold situation here, as the Book of James describes:"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." -James 2:26"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."- James 2:17That means, simply wishing people well isn't going to feed them. One must work out their salvation, not work for their salvation. Evidence of conversion is seen in the actions, but the actions themselves are secondary to the motivation. That's why Jesus told us that even our thoughts can be unclean. We don't need to follow through the act of adultery to be adulterers.

---

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

Exactly. It's what follows the action. If feeling good is the motivation for the action, it's selfish. That's what "love thy neighbour as thyself" means: Do it for him because you'd like to have it done for you. Feed him because you like to be fed. Feed him because it alleviates the pain in his stomach, not the pain in your heart. My point is that it makes no difference. Jesus told us to feed our brother's molecules. Treating our neighbours' molecules as we treat our own molecules is a purpose. Whether our molecules hooked up on their own or whether they are God's Tinkertoys, the maintenance of our molecules is a purpose. This has nothing to do with guilt or conscience. I don't know why you bring that up. That's not what Jesus said: Feed my brothers, get a reward. Don't feed my brothers, get punished. Not a word about motivation.-------------This will be my last response on this tangent.
If you are still confused, we can take this discussion elsewhere.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC