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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 67 of 331 (398416)
04-30-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
04-30-2007 4:11 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
The belief that God expects us to be all that we can be without need of Him is, in my opinion, a lie from the enemy.
What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination?
What if those of us without tinfoil hats are not being lied to?
Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 04-30-2007 4:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 04-30-2007 5:37 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 331 (398550)
05-01-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
05-01-2007 9:39 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
While it is comfortable for me to believe in a spiritual war....
You're more willing than most evangelicals to admit that your beliefs are based on "comfort". But comfortable beliefs, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, are not very satisfying when you grow up. Believing that Big Daddy will protect you from the bogeyman isn't much different.
You also take comfort in the "belief" that God doesn't want you to grow up. But the "need for communion" isn't about staying a child forever. You can have your communion with God without depending on Him to change your diapers.
Unfortunately, the idea of an "evangelical support group" seems to be to reinforce your comfy-cozy pajamas-with-feet complacency.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 9:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 11:03 AM ringo has replied
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 6:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 331 (398553)
05-01-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
05-01-2007 11:03 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS I
Phat writes:
You also take comfort in the "belief" that God doesn't want you to grow up.
Not at all. I am only saying that unlike human children, I believe that God does not want us to be independent.
It's the same thing. Growing up means becoming independent.
We come back to the "needy God" question: Why would God want you to be dependent on Him?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 11:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 331 (398621)
05-01-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
05-01-2007 6:28 PM


Re: Hostility and judgementalism
Phat writes:
Do you honestly think that so many Christians would willfully lie? If so, this world is in a bigger spiritual war than I thought!
If you're choosing up spiritual sides, how do you know you're on the "right" side? If one leader says, "I always tell the truth and my enemy always lies," how do you know he's telling the truth?
During the Russian revolution, my grandmother's cousin was drafted by the Red Army - and promptly deserted the first chance he got. He didn't choose the cause, nor did he choose to fight against it.
Have you really chosen a side? Does either side "need" you?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 05-01-2007 6:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 2:50 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 118 of 331 (398732)
05-02-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
05-02-2007 10:33 AM


Re: Exclusivism versus Inclusivism
Phat writes:
... rather than having to accept Jesus....
I have argued before on this forum that "accepting Jesus" means accepting His message rather than accepting His divinity, His self-sacrifice, etc.
Evangelicals tend to run away from that idea. They like to pretend that His divinity, self-sacrifice, etc. are His message.
I consider that the lazy approach. All you have to do is believe and you'll be "saved". You get a balcony seat to watch the poor unbelievers roasting in hell - those fools who didn't "accept" Jesus but only did what He told them to do.
Truly "accepting" Jesus means to embrace what He said and what He did. What or who He was is secondary.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 10:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 331 (399054)
05-03-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by truthlover
05-03-2007 2:53 PM


Re: Jars Christian Cult Of Ignorance
truthlover writes:
If the 1 Cor 1:20-27 represents Christian doctrine, then the Scriptures are not for the wise, but for the simple.
"Wise" and "simple" are not mutually exclusive.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 191 of 331 (442994)
12-23-2007 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
12-23-2007 8:15 AM


Re: Sing a spong of sixpence
iano writes:
The reason why a church might tell 'its' people why they must be born again is that no growing up is possible until that happens. If they tell their people to be born again again - then this would be indeed suspect.
On the contrary, growing up is a process that never ends. To tell people that one magic moment is all you need is downright dishonest.
What is indeed suspect is the behaviour of those who claim to be "grown up", who claim to be bursting with a need to express their love - yet they ooze nothing but bile.
I'm more impressed with the toddler who offers me a bite of her cookie.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 12-23-2007 8:15 AM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 331 (443019)
12-23-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
12-23-2007 3:38 AM


Re: Question For Ringo
Phat writes:
quote:
it is not God who is ever changing. It is the human perception of God.
So IF this is true, and IF human perceptions of God are ever changing, what differentiates our perception of God from God Himself?
"Maps and territories" is a good answer. I've seen a map of Middle Earth but I've never been there. You can get perceptions by reading a book, but it isn't the same as visiting the places or meeting the people - even if some people claim to have a "personal relationship" with Frodo.
And the map itself is no guarantee that the place even exists.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 221 of 331 (828231)
02-14-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-13-2018 12:39 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?
No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy.
That doesn't answer the question. Nobody denies that humans are needy. The question is: Does God need us to be needy? Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call any more.
If we can solve our own problems without consulting Him, is that a problem for Him?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 12:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 02-17-2018 1:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 227 of 331 (828506)
02-20-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
02-17-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
I figure that He foreknows our destiny and does not see a promising outcome.
I believe that He desires that we stay alive and not become extinct.
That's nice but it has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
Let's try again: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore."

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 02-17-2018 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 4:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 228 of 331 (828507)
02-20-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by AlexCaledin
02-19-2018 12:00 PM


AlexCaledin writes:
LOL imagine discussing romantic affairs with castrates . . .
You're conflating romance with sex.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-19-2018 12:00 PM AlexCaledin has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 231 of 331 (828798)
02-24-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
02-23-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
And any child worth their salt always communicates with their aged parents...
That isn't fair. People have to devote time to their own children too, as well as their own needs. They can't always devote as much of their energy to their parents as their parents might wish.
But you still haven't answered the question: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore."
You keep ignoring the first sentence.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 4:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 331 (828854)
02-25-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:27 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
I believe that God wants us to need Him.
Why would He "want" us to need Him?
We humans like to feel we are needed - but we have other humans who need us to one extent or another. Isn't it enough that the guy on the corner needs me to give him a dollar for drugs? Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice?
So, does God feel inadequate when some of us don't acknowledge any need for Him?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:37 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 331 (828863)
02-25-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
02-25-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
Not so much because He needs anything, but just so His people all get fed.
But the manna supply dried up a long time ago. He's relying on us to feed His people. Where does He come in at all?
Phat writes:
Once again, though---we need to nail down what God would consider to be defined as success for us--His spiritual offspring.
Why does the father get to define success for his offspring?
Phat writes:
and as to what He would think of those who did not wish to be part of such a spiritual communion, what alternative are they envisioning?
I personally am envisioning the reality that we have now - no discernible God to approve or disapprove of what I do.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:30 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 02-25-2018 3:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 331 (829351)
03-06-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
03-04-2018 4:21 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
My Father provided plenty of bread but not so much knowledge. I was forced to find that on my own....
The good father doesn't necessarily spoon-feed his children, either with bread or with knowledge. He encourages them to earn their own bread and seek their own knowledge.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-22-2022 9:58 AM ringo has replied

  
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