Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 99 (8820 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-19-2018 2:48 PM
322 online now:
Coyote, jar, kjsimons, PaulK, Tangle (5 members, 317 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: danlovy
Post Volume:
Total: 827,220 Year: 2,043/29,783 Month: 709/1,334 Week: 34/318 Day: 10/24 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
101112
13
1415Next
Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5744
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 181 of 224 (401036)
05-18-2007 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Equinox
05-17-2007 1:53 PM


Re: Doth thou understandeth?
Christians treat it as "interesting" or "worthy of respect" or "occasionally useful".

The problem is that most people that claim to be Christian are not.
Christian means Christ like.

I like your thoughts on the Word of God. That if you are going to believe it then act like you believe it. Don't just say that you believe it.

I find today the hardest thing for me to do is convince someone that I am serious about serving God. I am a fundamentalist but I am not a fanatic. I do believe the Bible. I study it daily, and I don't always take what a translation says. If I have questions I go to the Greek or Hebrew versions. I believe that the original manuscripts were perfect. What we have today has been copied by man and translated by man, and as usual man can mess things up to suit himself.

What do you think? How would you handle text that you really believed to be words from the almighty creator of everything seen and unseen, the master of universe and the decider of the destiny of every living thing?

Study, learn, then share.

2Tim 2:15 (KJS) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 3:16 (KJS) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephe 2:8 (KJS) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God loved us. Jesus died for us. Jesus came to save us not condemn us. We were already condemned.

Mankind is saved by God's grace (unmerited favor) when we take God at His Word.

I believe these passages therefore I teach them daily. I believe it is the only way a person can avoid the following:

Reve 20:14 (KJS) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Equinox, posted 05-17-2007 1:53 PM Equinox has not yet responded

    
truthlover
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 182 of 224 (403803)
06-05-2007 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
05-04-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Common Union
So in other words, truth (if it can be found at all) is found in a communion rather than an individual. The critics would say that whole groups of people (churches) could also be wrong, however.

So they would. However, those who claim to believe the Bible really are obligated to believe that truth can be found in a communion of people. Individuals are told that they need others in order not to be deceived (Eph 4:13-15), and that if they're not exhorted every day, they will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb 3:13). The communion of the saints, however, is told that the church is the pillar and support of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), and that the Holy Spirit (the Anointing) will teach them all things and it will be true and not a lie (1 Jn 2:27, where the you is plural, not singular).

If someone claims to be a Bible believer, then they ought to believe these things; or so it seems to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 11:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 06-05-2007 10:07 AM truthlover has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29974
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 183 of 224 (403824)
06-05-2007 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by truthlover
06-05-2007 8:27 AM


Re: Common Union
However, those who claim to believe the Bible really are obligated to believe that truth can be found in a communion of people.

Can be found.

That does not say that it is found in a communion of people or that any communion of people necessarily represents truth.

A communion of people can also be dedicated to falsehoods.

One potential error in taking such things without question is that it provides a basis for almost all of the current cults.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2007 8:27 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2007 12:03 PM jar has not yet responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 1740 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 184 of 224 (403838)
06-05-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
06-05-2007 10:07 AM


Re: Common Union
One potential error...

There's potential errors in everything.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 06-05-2007 10:07 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10502
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 185 of 224 (427176)
10-10-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
04-30-2007 11:27 AM


More on Spong
In my E-Mail, I often get an advertisement for joining John Shelby Spongs sermon series...for a yearly fee.

Each month, they send me a sample letter written to Spong and answered by him.

This is one of these letters:

Chris from Central Texas writes:


I attended your recent lectures in Austin and realize I forgot to ask you a question that has been increasingly on my mind: How does the concept of "worship" figure into your vision of a new Christianity?

For a long time I have felt that God doesn't need my worship or praise, and to think that God does need my worship and adoration seems silly. (I think that "worship" and "adoration" are different from feeling a sense of gratitude and connection to God.)

My church has been having some serious discussions regarding worship changes and I've heard some folks say that worship shouldn't be about us — it's simply about praising God.

Well, I think that worship is very much about me and about the other worshipers as well — it's about drawing us closer to God, about the community called the church, about inspiring us to care for others, etc. Creeds that I can't say, prayers of confession that beat people up, hymns focused on atonement messages, and an emphasis on liturgy and ritual over spirituality only impede my relationship to God.

Am I just spoiled and self-centered to want a more meaningful and more relevant worship experience?

The Good Bishop replies: Dear Chris,

Yours is a perennial question. I cannot imagine a God who "needs" worship, or a God who has some innate need to be flattered by the human praise that is so often the content of worship. Listen to the words of such hymns as "How Great Thou Art" and "Almighty, Invisible God Only Wise."

Worship is always a human activity that meets a human need. Whenever one engages in worship, it is not for the purpose of working on God but on the human being who is worshiping. Worship is designed to enhance our humanity: to increase our capacity to live, our ability to love and our courage to be all that God created us to be. If worship makes us "religious" or "righteous" or turns us into being intolerant "true believers," then it has become nothing more than an act of idolatry.

Worship in most of our churches today is a mixed blessing. It is frequently the result not of careful study and critical planning, but of rote and tradition. Much of it is designed to keep us childlike and immature and to make a virtue out of chronic dependency. One of the reasons churches exhort its people to be "born again" is that this will postpone forever the necessity of their growing up.

Worship at its heart is the practice of becoming aware of the presence of God so that we become more deeply and fully human. I judge every worship experience in which I participate by that definition.

- John Shelby Spong

What do you think of that, Nator? :)

Edited by Phat, :

Edited by Phat, :


Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nator, posted 04-30-2007 11:27 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-10-2007 3:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 187 by nator, posted 10-11-2007 10:21 AM Phat has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1608 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 186 of 224 (427246)
10-10-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
10-10-2007 8:49 AM


Re: More on Spong
Worship is designed to enhance our humanity: to increase our capacity to live, our ability to love and our courage to be all that God created us to be. If worship makes us "religious" or "righteous" or turns us into being intolerant "true believers," then it has become nothing more than an act of idolatry.

Worship in most of our churches today is a mixed blessing. It is frequently the result not of careful study and critical planning, but of rote and tradition. Much of it is designed to keep us childlike and immature and to make a virtue out of chronic dependency.

i think this has more insight than you may even think. the new testament specifically speaks of not chanting but singing is psalms and spiritual songs. but i think that even signing can become chanting when it becomes rote. but i stopped singing in church (before i stopped going) specifically because of the tear between this and the wretched poetic license so many songwriters take and have taken. so much music, especially new music, is really theologically lacking. i stopped singing because i couldn't commit to the claims being made in the songs and the failure to be theologically irreproachable.

i think the better songs are the ones about us and about what we're to become. but those are so very few and far between. also, i really, really hate the drivelous, repetitive "modern" worship tunes that take four words and repeat in a weak melody specifically inteded to encourage swaying and weeping and collapsing and imagining great emotional bullshit. it's really disgusting.

given all that. i think there's a major flaw in the thinking about worship as something "required" of us. the chief end of man is to glorify god and enjoy him forever. but this isn't because he demands it, but because he's so awesome that we really want to. it's like that guy at your job who blushes if you say thank you but he always does his work perfectly and early and he makes everything work better. do you fail to give his an employee of the quarter award just because he didn't ask for it? this is one of the distinct issues i have with some of the biblical depiction of god. "i saved you from egypt, and now i demand these things from you." that's not why david danced naked before his god. he danced naked before his god because he really, really loved his god. you can't dance naked before a god who demands specific worship, he won't like it. but you can before a god who loves you and who doesn't require but appreciates the relationship you build that way.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 10-10-2007 8:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 224 (427382)
10-11-2007 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Phat
10-10-2007 8:49 AM


Re: More on Spong
I think it is wonderful.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Phat, posted 10-10-2007 8:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 12-13-2007 11:25 PM nator has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10502
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 188 of 224 (440648)
12-13-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by nator
10-11-2007 10:21 AM


Re: More on Spong
John Shelby Spong writes again! (Just for you, Schraff! :p )

Spong writes:


Question: Where was the Christian God before he appeared to Moses and declared that the Israelis were his chosen people? Why didn't the great civilizations of the world, prior to this appearance, know about this God?

Dear Larry,

I'm tempted to follow the old adage attributed to Augustine of Hippo, who, when asked what was God doing before he created the world, responded, "God was creating hell for people who ask questions like that." I shall, however, avoid that temptation.

The Christian God, as you describe this deity, did not appear to Moses. That would be the God of the Jews. The idea that any people are God's specially chosen is a tribal idea that is shared by all tribal entities. We tend to associate that idea with the Jews because Christians have incorporated the Jewish God into the Christian story by proclaiming that we have encountered this God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses in a new way in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

However, it is not God who is ever changing. It is the human perception of God. Of course, God was present among the ancient people of the world. God was called by different names, endowed with different qualities and understood in different ways. Some of these aspects of God are seen as immoral by people living today, such as child sacrifice, the purging of anyone who thought outside the box and the divine blessing of violence.

The human God consciousness is always growing. This is true even in the Judeo-Christian faith story. There is an enormous difference between the God of Moses, who was perceived as sending plagues on Israel's enemies, the Egyptians, the last of which was the murder of the firstborn son in every Egyptian household; the God of Joshua, who was perceived as stopping the sun in the sky to facilitate the slaughter of the Ammonites by Joshua's army; or the God of Samuel, who ordered King Saul to commit genocide on the Amalekites; when that God is compared to the God of Jesus, who said, "Love your enemies."

Please remember that while the experience of God may be a universal experience, the explanation of the God experience is always a human creation shaped by the perceptions of people living in history. Every God explanation, every sacred text and every creedal formula is always time bound and time warped. That is why literalizing religious formulas is so destructive. It is literalized formulas that cause us to believe our limited view of God is the same as God. Out of that view come questions like yours that reveal the absurdity of so many popular religious claims and therefore I thank you for your question.

- John Shelby Spong

I am not sure that I can accept what Spong implies concerning literalism, but I have no supportable argument apart from personal comfort beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 10-11-2007 10:21 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10502
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 189 of 224 (442918)
12-23-2007 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
12-13-2007 11:25 PM


Question For Ringo
Spong writes:

it is not God who is ever changing. It is the human perception of God.

So IF this is true, and IF human perceptions of God are ever changing, what differentiates our perception of God from God Himself?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 12-13-2007 11:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 12-23-2007 1:00 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 12-23-2007 1:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
iano
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 190 of 224 (442960)
12-23-2007 8:15 AM


Sing a spong of sixpence
JS Sprong writes:

I cannot imagine a God who "needs" worship, or a God who has some innate need to be flattered by the human praise that is so often the content of worship. Listen to the words of such hymns as "How Great Thou Art" and "Almighty, Invisible God Only Wise."

Listen indeed.

quote:
O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!


It's not that God needs worship or flattery but that man needs a way to express his love, thanks and admiration of God to God. What would it be like if we were filled to the brim as the writer of "How Great Thou Art" clearly is...but could not express it. Would we burst? I'm with Brennakimi on this rather simple point, one the good bishop dances around yet clearly misses.

Worship is always a human activity that meets a human need. Whenever one engages in worship, it is not for the purpose of working on God but on the human being who is worshiping. Worship is designed to enhance our humanity: to increase our capacity to live, our ability to love and our courage to be all that God created us to be...

Worship at its heart is the practice of becoming aware of the presence of God so that we become more deeply and fully human. I judge every worship experience in which I participate by that definition

.
.
.

Worship in most of our churches today is a mixed blessing. It is frequently the result not of careful study and critical planning, but of rote and tradition.

true enough.

Much of it is designed to keep us childlike and immature and to make a virtue out of chronic dependency. One of the reasons churches exhort its people to be "born again" is that this will postpone forever the necessity of their growing up.

Designed to... Sounds like he suspects a a conspiracy of wolves in sheeps clothing.

The reason why a church might tell 'its' people why they must be born again is that no growing up is possible until that happens. If they tell their people to be born again again - then this would be indeed suspect.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 12-23-2007 11:19 AM iano has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14230
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 191 of 224 (442994)
12-23-2007 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
12-23-2007 8:15 AM


Re: Sing a spong of sixpence
iano writes:

The reason why a church might tell 'its' people why they must be born again is that no growing up is possible until that happens. If they tell their people to be born again again - then this would be indeed suspect.

On the contrary, growing up is a process that never ends. To tell people that one magic moment is all you need is downright dishonest.

What is indeed suspect is the behaviour of those who claim to be "grown up", who claim to be bursting with a need to express their love - yet they ooze nothing but bile.

I'm more impressed with the toddler who offers me a bite of her cookie.


Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 12-23-2007 8:15 AM iano has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29974
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 192 of 224 (443012)
12-23-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
12-23-2007 3:38 AM


Re: Question For Ringo
Maps and Territories.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:38 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14230
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 193 of 224 (443019)
12-23-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Phat
12-23-2007 3:38 AM


Re: Question For Ringo
Phat writes:

quote:
it is not God who is ever changing. It is the human perception of God.

So IF this is true, and IF human perceptions of God are ever changing, what differentiates our perception of God from God Himself?

"Maps and territories" is a good answer. I've seen a map of Middle Earth but I've never been there. You can get perceptions by reading a book, but it isn't the same as visiting the places or meeting the people - even if some people claim to have a "personal relationship" with Frodo.

And the map itself is no guarantee that the place even exists.


Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Phat, posted 12-23-2007 3:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10502
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 194 of 224 (701179)
06-12-2013 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by truthlover
04-28-2007 2:38 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
truthlover writes:

One more example, so you have an idea of how I read Genesis. I believe that God called the sun a greater light and the moon a lesser light on purpose. He wanted us to get a more applicable lesson than that the sun and moon were created on the fourth day. The greater light is the light of God, and the lesser light is the light of the church. The moon has no light of its own, but it reflects the light of the sun. So the church has no light of its own, but it shines with the glory of the Son. Jesus spoke of this when he said, "The night is coming when no one can work." He was the light of day, and now the church lights the night (or it's supposed to, at least) with his light.

Thats a new way to look at this scripture that I have never seen before.

Another good article which I recently read, one which challenges John Shelby Spong, is this one.The authors do a great job at stripping away the intellectual mystique of John Shelby Spong and his heretical views of religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by truthlover, posted 04-28-2007 2:38 PM truthlover has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2013 1:39 PM Phat has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15998
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 195 of 224 (701206)
06-13-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Phat
06-12-2013 5:03 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
Another good article which I recently read, one which challenges John Shelby Spong, is this one.The authors do a great job at stripping away the intellectual mystique of John Shelby Spong and his heretical views of religion.

It's a shame that the authors are also liars and loonies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Phat, posted 06-12-2013 5:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 06-14-2013 12:50 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
101112
13
1415Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018