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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 196 of 244 (701250)
06-14-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Dr Adequate
06-13-2013 1:39 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
It's a shame that the authors are also liars and loonies.
Yet how do we know who is truthful and who isnt? When it comes to faith, we cant simply use evidence based applicability. There are a lot more things that we cant see in life than what we can see.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2013 1:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 06-14-2013 12:58 PM Phat has responded
 Message 198 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2013 5:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(6)
Message 197 of 244 (701252)
06-14-2013 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
06-14-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
You look at what they say that can be tested.

And when you find they lie about the simple stuff that can be tested like the age of the earth or if the Biblical Flood ever happened why would any reasonable person trust anything that they say?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 06-14-2013 12:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:01 AM jar has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16069
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 198 of 244 (701286)
06-15-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
06-14-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
Yet how do we know who is truthful and who isnt?

Well one good rule of thumb is that anyone who describes Gould as a "Marxist" is a God-damned liar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 06-14-2013 12:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2013 4:49 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 199 of 244 (701312)
06-16-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Dr Adequate
06-15-2013 5:13 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
Anyone that uses Richard Milton as an authority on anything can be justifiable ignored.

quote:
Milton's claims have been criticised as pseudoscience by philosophy professor Robert Carroll.[7] Milton appeared on The Mysterious Origins of Man, a television special arguing that mankind has lived on the Earth for tens of millions of years, and that mainstream scientists have suppressed supporting evidence.[8]

Milton's claims on the age of mankind have also been criticised for scientific inaccuracy.[9] Milton's "Best of Enemies" [Page 167] quotes David Irving as a source on Hitler, despite the fact that Irving was jailed for Holocaust denial, and is no longer generally regarded as a reliable source by Holocaust scholars.



Source

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2013 5:13 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 200 of 244 (701329)
06-17-2013 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
04-30-2007 12:40 PM


Re: Listening To Radio Preachers and Teachers
jar writes:

There actually is searching and questioning going on in "contemporary Christianity" and I would be more than happy to point you towards such sources.

What types of questions are people asking? What on earth are we searching for? Seems to me that we have found Gods character alive within us...(Jesus) but perhaps you may accuse me of taking the cheap and easy solution being sold.

I will agree that humans are expected to think and ask questions, but I feel that we are making a big mistake if we never agree on any tentative answers, nevermind permanent ones.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 04-30-2007 12:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 06-17-2013 10:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 201 of 244 (701330)
06-17-2013 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by jar
06-14-2013 12:58 PM


Re: Looking for a discussion
You look at what they say that can be tested.
And when you find they lie about the simple stuff that can be tested like the age of the earth or if the Biblical Flood ever happened why would any reasonable person trust anything that they say?
Would you not agree that the Flood story is more of a parable?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 06-14-2013 12:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by dwise1, posted 06-17-2013 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 204 by jar, posted 06-17-2013 10:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3212
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 202 of 244 (701334)
06-17-2013 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
06-17-2013 10:01 AM


Re: Looking for a discussion
Would you not agree that the Flood story is more of a parable?

Yes, obviously! But try to tell that to a creationist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 203 of 244 (701335)
06-17-2013 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
06-17-2013 10:00 AM


Re: Listening To Radio Preachers and Teachers
Phat writes:

Seems to me that we have found Gods character alive within us...(Jesus) but perhaps you may accuse me of taking the cheap and easy solution being sold.

I'd say that doesn't even have any meaning and is just word salad.

Phat writes:

What types of questions are people asking?

Why is what is called Evangelical or Fundamental or Biblical Christianity today so wedded to lies, *********, denial, injustice and dishonesty?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 204 of 244 (701336)
06-17-2013 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
06-17-2013 10:01 AM


Re: Looking for a discussion
What I think is irrelevant.

But when someone today claims that the Biblical Flood actually happened or the the Earth is young or that there really was an Adam and Steve or Tower of Babel I know they liars and so I should doubt anything and everything they have to say.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-17-2013 10:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 205 of 244 (765639)
08-03-2015 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
05-02-2007 11:26 AM


Responsibility vs The Easy Path
jar writes:

I think the Gospel is totally different.

I think the Gospel is that GOD tells us it's okay to fail, but it is not okay not to try.

I don't disagree with this statement except that I don't think it is all that we are supposed to do.

On the one hand you ask the ongoing question of how do we know it is GOD. Good question in that it is impossible to fully understand the creator of all seen and unseen. And yet you also say that we are expected to correct God as was done in the Bible during times prior. So how does one correct someone who is essentially unknowable?

jar writes:

...others have commented that I don't talk about my relationship with GOD.

Such Testifying is a big part of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. Oh, it might make folk feel good, or even raise a joyful sound, but what does it mean?

How is it tested?

Teachers will be judged more seriously than others due to their influence and being respected members of the community and who are in positions of trust.(officially or unofficially)

Telling people that the source is unimportant and that GOD could care less whether or not we believe in "Her" are in my opinion slippery slopes.

jar writes:

We can't do anything for GOD.

Come on, She created the whole universe. What the hell can we do for someone who can create all that is, seen and unseen?

Well according to you we can correct her when She is wrong!

jar writes:

All that we can do is try to do for others, for the world we live in, for plants and animals the environment, for friends and enemies and for children and knowledge.

All we can do is try to do our best, honestly try to evaluate our behavior, honestly acknowledge when we do wrong, try to make amends when we do screw up and try to do better in the future. That really is all that we can do.

It really is that simple.

In my opinion, we can ask the Spirit of GOD into our heart---that is---in communion with us. It may well be our responsibility to try and do our best but we cannot do it alone. In this case the source is important.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 05-02-2007 11:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 8:56 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 206 of 244 (765643)
08-03-2015 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
08-03-2015 2:15 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
More word salad Phat.

Phat writes:

In my opinion, we can ask the Spirit of GOD into our heart---that is---in communion with us. It may well be our responsibility to try and do our best but we cannot do it alone. In this case the source is important.

What the hell does any of that mean? Will you finally after being asked for over a decade tell us how someone can know they are in communion with God and how God can actually do anything a human cannot?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 2:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 9:21 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 207 of 244 (765645)
08-03-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
08-03-2015 8:56 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
First of all, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can and does not happen. I realize your position on the issue, however.

In What Is Christianity you claim that GOD IS. You claim that Jesus died for everyone, including atheists. Thus unlike most of the chapters in Christianity, you dislike the idea of a GOD who "picks" who shall be saved based on certain criteria. (Such as having communion with only some of the people. )

Based on your own belief and your choice to reject much of the Gospel of John as inspirational, there really isn't a way to explain anything to you in regards to Spiritual versus Natural.

The point of contention between us seems to be your general disdain for

Evangelical Christianity as practiced and believed in much of America and the world today. You claim that GOD likely doesnt care whether or not we even believe in "Her".

You also claim that in order for anything to make sense about GOD, Jesus while among us was only human. It seems that to you, Christianity is nothing more than a willful human practice and that there is no mystery, no woo factor and no spiritual dynamic that only some of the people understand.

Here is where we agree. GOD IS. Where we disagree is the nature of such a Being.

WHY BELIEVE? By Stephen Evans writes:

In short, the God of Christianity is highly individualized.(...) Such a God is highly embarrassing and irritating to many, precisely because He is so very personal. It is all well and good to believe in a God who is thought of in vague terms as "a moral force" or "the power of being." Such a God will probably not interfere too much with my basic plans and values.

In summation, my idea and belief about Christianity is about a knowable God who desires to commune with humanity, whereas your idea is about humanity only needing a basic charge and responsibility to do unto others...while God is unknowable and largely unimportant in daily life.
Will you finally after being asked for over a decade tell us how someone can know they are in communion with God and how God can actually do anything a human cannot?
People can believe. They will never objectively know that they are in communion, until and unless they experience it. As far as God can do something a human cannot, I can only say that such a question is ridiculous at best.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 08-03-2015 8:56 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:12 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 208 of 244 (765681)
08-04-2015 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
08-03-2015 9:21 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
Again Phat, stop misrepresenting what I post. I make few claims that I do not also support with reasoned arguments or point out that it is a matter of my beliefs and may well be wrong.

And in the thread you used as a supporting link, I point out that there really doesn't seem to be any possible definition of Christianity that goes beyond self identification or membership in one of the Chapters of Club Christian.

Phat writes:

You claim that Jesus died for everyone, including atheists.

I seriously doubt you can find anywhere that I made such a claim or even where I claim that Jesus died for anyone. In fact I have said repeatedly that Jesus death was inevitable if Jesus was born and that Jesus death was not even unusual since at least two others died the same way on the same day and in the same place.

Phat writes:

You also claim that in order for anything to make sense about GOD, Jesus while among us was only human.

Again, that is NOT what I say. I say that for Christianity to make sense as something different than the Greek or Roman theology as an example, Jesus must have been only human while living with us.

Phat writes:

In summation, my idea and belief about Christianity is about a knowable God who desires to commune with humanity, whereas your idea is about humanity only needing a basic charge and responsibility to do unto others...while God is unknowable and largely unimportant in daily life.

Stop misrepresenting what I say Phat.

You claim that you know god and commune with god and I ask "How do you know that it is god you are communing with?" and you never answer.

Phat writes:

As far as God can do something a human cannot, I can only say that such a question is ridiculous at best.

So you say that you can do anything that god can do?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 08-03-2015 9:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 08-18-2015 1:53 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 209 of 244 (766418)
08-18-2015 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
08-04-2015 9:12 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
jar writes:

So you say that you can do anything that god can do?

No. I believe that Jesus was and is God. Despite this, Jesus didn't walk around like superman or like Jim Carey in Bruce Almighty.

I agree with you that Jesus was human. Whether or not he was also God is irrelevant because he never used that---as far as we know---to any unfair advantage. What he did have was an intuition into the hearts and minds of others. He also had a strong relationship with his father, creator of all seen and unseen.

Chambers describes it thus:

quote:
Have you been asking God what He is going to do? He will never tell you. God does not tell you what He is going to do He reveals to you who He is. Do you believe in a miracle-working God, and will you go out in complete surrender to Him until you are not surprised one iota by anything He does?
Perhaps you feel and believe that doing your best every day is as close as you can get to communion. Your analytical mind has never understood communion and I for one dont understand it enough to explain it to you. I am still learning Who He Is.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:12 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 210 of 244 (828197)
02-13-2018 12:26 PM


Chris Rosebrough

Rosebrough is a conservative Lutheran who is not out to make a ton of money as Benny Hinn did. He interviews Hinns Nephew and the conversation exemplifies some key points regarding mainstream Club Christian versus Evangelical Club Money.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

  
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