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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
jar
Member
Posts: 30488
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 226 of 244 (828492)
02-20-2018 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
02-20-2018 3:28 AM


Re: Castrates
That's a great example of how the Christian Cult of Ignorance perverts the Bible by taking quote mined passages and proof texts out of context. It is classic apologist dishonesty.

Go back and read all of 1 Cor 3 to see the passage in context and see that in fact Paul is condemning the very practice exemplified by AlexCaledin and Evangelical Christianity itself.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 02-20-2018 3:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14747
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 227 of 244 (828506)
02-20-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
02-17-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

I figure that He foreknows our destiny and does not see a promising outcome.
I believe that He desires that we stay alive and not become extinct.


That's nice but it has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Let's try again: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore."


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 02-17-2018 1:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 4:23 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14747
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 228 of 244 (828507)
02-20-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by AlexCaledin
02-19-2018 12:00 PM


AlexCaledin writes:

LOL imagine discussing romantic affairs with castrates . . .


You're conflating romance with sex.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-19-2018 12:00 PM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10873
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 229 of 244 (828755)
02-23-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
02-20-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:

Let's try again: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore."

In fact I DO see God as a parental figure for society. We are often referred to as His children.

And any child worth their salt always communicates with their aged parents...Honor thy father and Mother...dont simply grow up and isolate yourself with your own family. The concept of the extended family seems missing in the West...one of our sins.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 11:36 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 02-23-2018 5:35 PM Phat has responded
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:16 AM Phat has responded
 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 02-25-2018 12:23 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30488
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 230 of 244 (828764)
02-23-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
02-23-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

The concept of the extended family seems missing in the West...one of our sins.

Humans love to create sins as much as they love creating Gods.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:28 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14747
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 231 of 244 (828798)
02-24-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
02-23-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

And any child worth their salt always communicates with their aged parents...


That isn't fair. People have to devote time to their own children too, as well as their own needs. They can't always devote as much of their energy to their parents as their parents might wish.

But you still haven't answered the question: "Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore."

You keep ignoring the first sentence.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10873
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 232 of 244 (828806)
02-24-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ringo
02-24-2018 11:16 AM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
I believe that God wants us to need Him. He of course needs nothing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:16 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Rrhain, posted 02-25-2018 6:49 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:10 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10873
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 233 of 244 (828807)
02-24-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
02-23-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 02-23-2018 5:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 02-24-2018 9:41 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 244 by Stile, posted 03-07-2018 2:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30488
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 234 of 244 (828823)
02-24-2018 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:28 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

It must be convenient for you to be your own judge. Isnt it nice to wipe away all of your own sins?

There you go talking bullshit again and bullshit that you and I have covered many, many times.

As a Christian I believe I will someday be judged by God.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that humans love to make up sins as much as making up Gods.

An honest person will admit that he or she has no idea what is or is not a sim --> sin or whether they will be judged and condemned or pardoned. But selling the Christian "Jesus paid for your sins" is without a doubt one of the most successful conjobs ever created by mankind.

Humans do create moral standards and also legality but sin has absolutely nothing to do with either the concept of morality or legality.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 235 of 244 (828844)
02-25-2018 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:27 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

quote:
I believe that God wants us to need Him. He of course needs nothing.

Except for humanity to need him, as indicated by your first sentence.

Otherwise, why does he get upset when people don't need him?

Ooh, the end of Pygmalion is coming up (it's fun when the play I was in starts invading my life outside of the theatre). Eliza is finally beginning to assert her independence:

HIGGINS. You never asked yourself, I suppose, whether I could do without YOU.

LIZA [earnestly] Don't you try to get round me. You'll HAVE to do without me.

HIGGINS [arrogant] I can do without anybody. I have my own soul: my own spark of divine fire. But [with sudden humility] I shall miss you, Eliza. [He sits down near her on the ottoman]. I have learnt something from your idiotic notions: I confess that humbly and gratefully. And I have grown accustomed to your voice and appearance. I like them, rather.

And indeed, Higgins doesn't "need" her. He will be able to get on in his life without her. And he doesn't want her to need him, either:

HIGGINS. I have never sneered in my life. Sneering doesn't become either the human face or the human soul. I am expressing my righteous contempt for Commercialism. I don't and won't trade in affection. You call me a brute because you couldn't buy a claim on me by fetching my slippers and finding my spectacles. You were a fool: I think a woman fetching a man's slippers is a disgusting sight: did I ever fetch YOUR slippers? I think a good deal more of you for throwing them in my face. No use slaving for me and then saying you want to be cared for: who cares for a slave? If you come back, come back for the sake of good fellowship; for you'll get nothing else. You've had a thousand times as much out of me as I have out of you; and if you dare to set up your little dog's tricks of fetching and carrying slippers against my creation of a Duchess Eliza, I'll slam the door in your silly face.

And later:

LIZA. What am I to come back for?

HIGGINS [bouncing up on his knees on the ottoman and leaning over it to her] For the fun of it. That's why I took you on.

LIZA [with averted face] And you may throw me out tomorrow if I don't do everything you want me to?

HIGGINS. Yes; and you may walk out tomorrow if I don't do everything YOU want me to.

Higgins wants Eliza, but he doesn't need her. And if she decides to walk out, he won't hold it against her. He may not think much of her prospects without him (certainly if she were to marry Freddy...and Shaw took great pains to write in his epilogue that her marrying Freddy would be a disaster as well as any attempt she made to teach phonetics), but the point is that he doesn't want her to be beholden to him. If he did, then that would mean he needed her and Higgins is very clear that he doesn't need anybody.

[Note, they changed this ending radically for My Fair Lady, having Higgins abandon his Miltonic ideals for love...and Eliza abandoning her independence for the same.]

If god didn't need us, he wouldn't care if we were able to be independent of him. Oh, he might be happier if we were to include him, but someone who doesn't need you doesn't get angry when you don't need him back.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:27 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3078
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 236 of 244 (828853)
02-25-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
02-23-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Well.. let's put it this way.

If you were a parent, which would you be prouder of. A child who always called you to have you tell them what to do at all times,

Or, a child, taking the lessons you taught, applying them properly , was able to make their own way in the world and be successful, with the fruit of their own labor?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:19 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14747
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 237 of 244 (828854)
02-25-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:27 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

I believe that God wants us to need Him.


Why would He "want" us to need Him?

We humans like to feel we are needed - but we have other humans who need us to one extent or another. Isn't it enough that the guy on the corner needs me to give him a dollar for drugs? Should I feel inadequate because the Prime Minister doesn't ask me for advice?

So, does God feel inadequate when some of us don't acknowledge any need for Him?


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10873
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 238 of 244 (828855)
02-25-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by ramoss
02-25-2018 12:23 PM


Assuming The Christian God Is A Parental Figure
Let's run with this a minute and presuppose that the Christian God is similar to a parental figure.
If you were a parent, which would you be prouder of. A child who always called you to have you tell them what to do at all times,

Or, a child, taking the lessons you taught, applying them properly, was able to make their own way in the world and be successful, with the fruit of their own labor?

We first need to arrive at a consensus of what would be considered successful and whether such a life could be approved by this God.

Todays Christians have many different varieties of jobs---from Janitor to Investment Banker. Virtually all claim to have a relationship or at least an understanding of Who God is and how they understand Him. On what grounds do they believe He approves of their choices, actions, and professions in life?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 02-25-2018 12:23 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10873
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 239 of 244 (828858)
02-25-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:

So, does God feel inadequate when some of us don't acknowledge any need for Him?

Im not sure how He would feel. Puzzled comes to mind. (But thats my human take on it) The guy on the corner counts on you for money (the fruits of your labor)

Does God count on the same from us? Not so much because He needs anything, but just so His people all get fed. (not sure he would look the other way when the guy bought drugs with your hard earned dollar, but thats between the guy and God. )

To summarize, I believe that God is present and aware of our lives, that He has an interest in our success, and that He makes himself available---through prayer or meditation---in the event that we do need to call home for advice, encouragement, and comfort.

Once again, though---we need to nail down what God would consider to be defined as success for us--His spiritual offspring. (and as to what He would think of those who did not wish to be part of such a spiritual communion, what alternative are they envisioning?)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14747
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 240 of 244 (828863)
02-25-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
02-25-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

Not so much because He needs anything, but just so His people all get fed.


But the manna supply dried up a long time ago. He's relying on us to feed His people. Where does He come in at all?

Phat writes:

Once again, though---we need to nail down what God would consider to be defined as success for us--His spiritual offspring.


Why does the father get to define success for his offspring?

Phat writes:

and as to what He would think of those who did not wish to be part of such a spiritual communion, what alternative are they envisioning?


I personally am envisioning the reality that we have now - no discernible God to approve or disapprove of what I do.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 02-25-2018 3:50 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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