Would you want to know?

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I don't say I am convinced - I say I know.

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But you don't know.You believe.Unless, of course, you wish to continue claiming that "knowing" and "believing" are the same.

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As it is, he was only convinced and now he is convinced otherwise. This happens all the time in all walks of life. Its says something about Crash and his convictions but nothing at all about God.

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Similarly, it says something about your beliefs.How do you know you aren't just convinced of a falsehood, just like he was? Edited by AdminQuetzal, : No reason given.

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From, if I remember right, Mark Twain: "Its not the things we don't know that hurt us, its the things we know that ain't so." That might make a good signature line.

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There is a wonderful book who's title is a paraphrase of Twain called How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallibility of Human Reason in Everyday Life by Thomas Gilovich.Highly reccommended.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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And given that what I know to be the case matches with the overwhelming majority of people in so many areas which have nothing at all to do with God then I have a high degree of certainty that delusion doesn't factor into things.

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But there is a very large difference between the everyday, mundane things you agree with everyone else about and the existence of the supernatural.Any disinerested observer can be shown a computer screen, for example, and report that it is there, on my desk. They can tell me the color, the size, how many buttons and lights it has on it, the sound that it makes, the temperature of it, etc. Most people will report similar results, if I have a bunch of people come in to my office to do this.You cannot do anything even remotely approaching this sort of test with your notion of the supernatural.No disinterested observer can ever be shown your supernatural entity.You cannot consider equivalent what a disinterested observer can report to exist and what you alone can report to exist.You believe.You don't know. Edited by AdminQuetzal, : No reason given.

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Why not? What is knowing but knowing?

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When it is faith.Do you recognize a difference between faith and knowledge or not, Ian?The more I read you in this thread, the more I realize that you seem to think that you need more than faith to accept that God exists. Edited by AdminQuetzal, : No reason given.

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My purpose is evangelism.

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Holy crap, really?I am sorry but feel it is my human duty to inform you that I would never, ever want to think like you. Your version of God is reprehensible to me.Your gleeful embrace of self-imposed ignorance is repugnant to much that is noble and worthwhile about the human experience.As you have represented it to me, I would never in a million years consider belief in your God.I don't want to come across as unkind, but if preaching your belief with the goal of reaching unbelievers with your message has been your goal, it is not only failing with me, but is actively driving me away from it. Edited by AdminQuetzal, : No reason given.

Hi Schraf. I presume you now get the hint? Please see my post 165. Obviously you missed it before replying to iano.And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic.

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I am fully human and I have no desire to lie in my life. lying really bothers me. It bothers me that we live in a world full of lies, in a world where we almost have to lie, just to live. Having felt what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, I have felt the truth, and I know with all my heart that God/Jesus was not a liar, and all that He promises us will come to truth. That is what drives my faith now. I am sure he felt the urge to lie, because he was human, but He choose not to, and set the perfect example for what our faith is supposed to be. Temptation is not a sin.Tell me, do you know Jesus?

But you have lied before.Telling a lie doesn't brand you as a liar for your whole life. You only BELIEVE that Jesus wasn;t a liar, you do not know everything about His life. Must be a blind faith mate because almost everything Jesus said in the Gospels turned out to be a lie. He died 2000 years before I was born, he's maggot food I'm afraid.You could pick a far better role model than Jesus.Brian.

Iano, sorry it took me a while, I've been thinking about your position. Oh. I was reffering to the commonly seem argument that atheists/non-believers have no reason to be moral. We either need a promise of reward, or a threat of punishment. If this doesn't apply to your position I guess it's irrelevant. Well surely that's a different thing. You asked about an element of reality external to me. Now you ask about a feeling, like sadness, or love, or confusion. Something that cannot be directly demonstrated to others and exists entirely within my mind, irrespective of any objective reality. What's with the change?Feelings are grey things anyway, people who expect certainty of feeling are missing the subtleties of reality in my opinion.I think the difference between our views is that I think uncertainty has more value than certainty, especially given that any absolute certainty is pretty much delusion and most people have experienced knowledge that turned out to be wrong. I have trouble accepting your absolute certainty for anything other than bluster, given your stated aim of evangelism you've convinced me that I'd have to give up a significant amount of reason to sign up. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

But that's not my point. I am only making the distinction that I do not wish to lie, or live in a world where lying is almost a neccessity. No wrong again.I know for a fact that it is written that Jesus was without sin.
That is evidence of Jesus not being a liar.
There is no evidence that Jesus was a liar, only that He was a human, and lived by faith like us. It is possible to live life and not lie, but most likely, you will end up like Jesus, on a "cross". More evidence that He wasn't a liar.You never met Jesus, yet you call Him a human. Where are you getting that info from? The bible? The bible also says He was sin free. You can't pick and choose what you want to be true, based on your own feelings. You are correct, it is always faith, that gets you to know God.
As far as what He told us to be lies, that is news to me. If you talk enough, you can claim anything you want. Jesus is the essence of life. His way of thinking is my "proof" that there is more to this life, than silly arguements on an internet forum, by some guy named Brian who knows more than God's word.
Don't take it the wrong way, I am not insulting you, but you have yet to really present anything profound to me yet, and the bible has. So I choose to follow God's word that is in the bible.We have discussed Old Testament, and different subjects, but those stories, whether they happened or not, always speak to me. That's God's word in action. I have yet to see anything deep about life come from you yet. I am not saying you don't have valuable thoughts on life, and that I could not learn a thing or two from you, but you seem to be wasting your efforts of fighting a fight that can't be won. I question your purposes for being in this forum (only based on our discussions).The way you present stuff, only pushes me closer to God, but not further from you. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

I think we all have the same sentiments. However, in certain cases we do need to lie.Also, every time you told one of your kids, or anyone else for that matter, that Jesus rose from the dead and was God incarnate you are essentially lying. So what? There's alot of things written in the Bible that is untrue. No it isn't, this is evidence of your circular reasoning. Yes there is, read the Bible without the spectacles of faith and you will find upteen places where Jesus told lies. How could Jesus live by faith? he was God incarnate and knew everything that was going to happen. I don't think it is. People lie to their kids all the time. They tell them about the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and Jesus, this is no different than telling a lie. Not nowadays. Nowadays Jesus would have been put in a mental asylum and given therapy. Given that we don't really know for sure why He was killed, that's a pretty pointless statement. I get it from people who tell me Jesus was born and grew up to be a man. Logically speaking, there's nothing else He could have been. If Jesus was a man then He was human, there's nothing else He could have been. I believe very little that is in the Bible. Given that almost everything from Genesis through to Judges has been disproven, then I think it's time to consign the Bible to the fiction shelf where it belongs. And a little self delusion. Research the Bible a little, try not to be biased for it, you will see the lies.Here's one for you to begin with:Mtt 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." A clear lie since his entire audience is dead and He still hasn't returned to estab;ish His kingdom.I am sure you will have some excuse for Jesus here, you must have no matter how ludicrous it is, because you need to keep the self delusion going. Even if it means adding to the text it doesn't matter, you must make up an excuse for Jesus. There's no real effort, I only post here when there's nothing much else to do. In the early days this forum was enjoyable but it's not what it used to be. I think it is too heavily moderated, I mean who hasn't been a moderator here? When you think about it, we have more mods here than we do regular posters!I know that nothing I say will have any influence whatsoever on Christians, I worked that out very quickly.The only enjoyable thing here now is if we have an OT debate based on history/archaeology, but even that is rare now. The only satifaction I have had from the forum is the many people who have contacted me via e-mail asking for some advice, or a readng list, or lending moral support.But remember, it works both ways. Just as many Christians pay no attention to what I post, and I think some are incapable of truly understanding what historical enquiry is anyway, I really don't pay much attention to what many Chrsitans here write. I have heard everything christians write here a thousands times, not one has posted anything that I have found really meaningful. Although I will say that I am glad I have made many friends here over the years who are Christian. I dont count Faith or Ian as Christians, they are really nothing at all like I'd expect someone who is in Christ to act.Also, fighting a fight that cannot be won is not a fruitless fight, you can learn a lot whilst researching a subject which improves your own knowledge. Think about writing a 20 000 word dissertation, there's a good chance that there's another 20 000 words that you discarded, but the information is still in your head.Brian. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

Sorry Sour, I missed this one. Punishment is not the motivation to 'be good'. Thankfulness is. So long as you remain uncertain then there is hope. It means you are not certain that uncertainty is the best path. You would have to give up a lot of your reasoning. Lots of it is at root based on assumptions man has generated. You would have to stop relying on their wisdom and conclusions and face the facts he presents to you. They, unlike theirs, are irrefutable.Its very reasonable and logical and it will fit like nothing ever did before so its not like it wouldn't strike you as unfamiliar. More like an out of tune guitar being brought into tune. Its still a guitar but it plays correctly now.Your uncertainty means you can never say never. Until you arrive at a destination. Which is no bad thing. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

You ARE WORSE THAN A FUNDAMENTALIST.Since this has to do with the question of the OP, then go ahead and prove it. Because, yes I do want to know if there is no God, and you just blabering that is no God, is not good enough for me, you'll have to do better, or I will keep you in the category of most catholics, fundamentalists, and the green miracle rag man. Something written 2000 years ago is not evidence of anything I am doing today, hate to break it to you. Well it's obvious you take me for some kind of moron, but maybe you should self check. How do you think I went about reading the bible in the first place? With faith? Give me a break.I was never one of those people that said, well it's in the bible, it must be true. I am still not one of those people today. Your view of me, and God, and the bible is entirely wrong. Jesus lived by faith because He was human. He was told He was the son of God, but not until the heavens opened up, when He was getting baptised di God Himself say, this is my Son with Whom I am well pleased.The devil tempted Jesus's faith in the desert. He asked Him, "if" you are the Son of God. You get the taken out of context award for the year.
Yea, they could have put Him in there with all the other Jesus's. Jesus's life or your life, is not a math problem. Read that again. Your day will come. And when your lying on your back, you do a lot of looking up. I just feel sad that you have so much anger towards the whole thing. A true logical person, or scientific person would always be agnostic. They are not dead.I am not making an excuse, just teaching what it says in the very same book. Love conquers all. Yes, and I appreciate it. It helps define my faith, and forces me to keep it real. More than anything else in this world, I do not want to wind being looked upon as a Fundamentalist, or any of these other crackers out there. These fights bare much fruit, and bring out the truth in things for me. And you are right, it swings both ways.I really wish you could experience what I experienced for just one second. Just one little second would be all that it takes, and books of wisdom would be downloaded into your brain.I don't hate you Brian. I hate some of the things you say, or the way you say it. It is a shame you have to be so filled with anger in some of your statements. You are also filled with way to many absolutes for me to consider you as a true scientifical person. The whole dam world is subjective, because you can only see it through your little subjective mind, and it doesn't matter how many times you test it, it's never proven, unless time stops.

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Mtt 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

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guys, if you want to discuss this further I've started a new thread here.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."