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Author | Topic: Ticket to the Resurrection | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
But where does the Soul go when it dies? Does it dissapear for a while until the resurrection, or is it judged by God and sent to Heaven or Hell to be held for the final judgement? 2Cor 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Paul says for the child of God to be absent fom the body is to be in the presents of the Lord.
Reve 20:13 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. This is the Great White Throne judgment of the unsaved. Apparently they went to hell at death. Every one who appears here will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15 The judgments are not to determine guilt or innocence. That is determined in this lifetime by each individual.
John 3:18 (KJS) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Man is condemned because he has not believed in Jesus. Not for any other reason. It has nothing to do with being good or bad. It has nothing to do with helping others. It has only to do with what a person does with Jesus when they meet Him. You can accept His as Saviour or reject Him. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Grizz writes: But the claim is our own bodies will be resurrected - it doesn't say we will receive a new body. If we will receive new bodies that have nothing to do with our old one then our bodies really don't get resurrected. The conclusion can only be there is no resurrection after all - there are simply souls being placed into new bodies that get created. Theologians don't get too uptight about which body. The main question was what kind of body. Physical or spiritual? Or none. Catholics concluded that the majority of evidence was for physical. Same kind. Not necessarily same ONE. Obviously it won't be the same exact one, but that was a belief which caused a lot of confusion about cremation in the RCC. I might say it is the 'body you've always wanted'. The one you were meant to have before all this corruption nonsense. Yours, but better. And a few new 'extras'. It is funny sometimes how folks think they can get us to question doctrine, when doctrine was the result of questions. I can give you the doctrine. I can't fill it in with anything other than my imagination, and I try not to post purely imaginary sequences.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Ana writes: The soul is that same essence which makes it impossible and wrong for you to rob a person of life, or not to recognize their status as human, and the dignity of that status. So what is the essence of the soul then?
Ana writes: If we truly felt it was our memory, self-awareness, and personality which makes us who we are, i.e., human...well, we would be back there in time when the mentally ill, the less intelligent, or the brain-dead were considered disposable. I do not at all believe this is necessary or required. However I don't want to divert from the very important question of what is soul. You seem to be saying that soul is something other than then self-aware mind, the memory, the ego, the personality. Is that correct?
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
I know I am responding to ICANT but this is more of a question to Anastasia. In RiverRat's thread you chastised Taz and myself with this...
Anastasia writes: you should at least know WHAT Christians are saying before you get mired into a pit where all you see is nonsense. It's simply because you don't get it Then you patched our faulty understanding with...
Anastasia writes: So, no Christian except someone who has not bothered to understand, will tell you that God, aka the Specific Christian God, aka Jesus, is appearing/revealing to Hindus and head-hunters, and being rejected. We ARE saying that we believe everyone has a conscience and a soul which yearns to do right, and that by consciously choosing evil, we are figuratively rejecting God. Even the one we never heard of, and the even one we don't believe in. Can you tell me if ICANT has bothered ot understand or gets it...
ICANT writes: Man is condemned because he has not believed in Jesus. Not for any other reason. It has nothing to do with being good or bad. It has nothing to do with helping others. It has only to do with what a person does with Jesus when they meet Him. You can accept His as Saviour or reject Him. Just trying to understand all this.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Just trying to understand all this. Hi iceage, You did notice that I quoted John 3:18 where it says "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". I was just stating what God inspired John to write. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Catholic Catechism writes: The soul is the center of the human will, intellect (or mind), and imagination (or memory), and the source of all free human acts, although good acts are aided by God's grace. You seem to be saying that soul is something other than then self-aware mind, the memory, the ego, the personality. Is that correct? The soul is believed to be immortal, and more importantly, created directly by God rather than thru the workings of biology. I would say the soul utilizes the body for its expression, the body is the medium. If the body is damaged, the soul can in no wise be said to have ceased existing. It does not require a body for existence. I believe that self-awareness, ego, conscience, etc. are the soul's 'evidences' within our body, and it is safe to say the words are used interchangeably. I would just draw the line at saying a person whose mental faculties as far as awareness are compromised, is not in possession of a soul. It is believed that in this life the soul is subject to the body and its infirmities, is trapped, and that in the next it would be the body which responds completely to the whim of the soul.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Ana writes: I believe that self-awareness, ego, conscience, etc. are the soul's 'evidences' within our body Catholic Catechism writes: The soul is the center of the human will, intellect (or mind), and imagination (or memory), and the source of all free human acts, although good acts are aided by God's grace. Ah so Catholics (and I assume you do also) believe the soul is the will, mind, memory, personality of the individual. Now how do you account for individuals where these things never develop or are diminished or altered during the course of life? That is given the above definition of soul what about someone that never develops a human will, intellect (or mind), and imagination (or memory)? Or what if the personality changes as the result of injury. At one point are these individuals resurrected?
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Grizz Member (Idle past 5499 days) Posts: 318 Joined: |
Theologians don't get too uptight about which body. The main question was what kind of body. Physical or spiritual? Or none. It is very important to identify which type of body. Resurrection implies the bodies we now own will be regenerated. Resurrection does not equate to the realization of something new that did not exist prior. Bringing forth something that never existed prior is an act of creation, not resurrection.
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Grizz Member (Idle past 5499 days) Posts: 318 Joined: |
It is funny sometimes how folks think they can get us to question doctrine, when doctrine was the result of questions. The point of this post is nothing more than to get people to think critically about their beliefs.
I can give you the doctrine. I can't fill it in with anything other than my imagination, and I try not to post purely imaginary sequences. That is how most religions have come to be. Theologians and Prophets start with a very general idea - a God exists. They then make it into something very specific by using the imagination to fill in the the details. The specifics are then passed off as divine revelation and a religion is born. All religions have their laws and prophets. They also all have sacred texts that are written by very creative individuals with active imaginations. To a Christian, the Koran is simply the result of heretics with a wild imagination and a lot of time on their hands. To a Muslim, Christians are infidels. In the end, Mythology is always defined as the other guy's religion.
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Grizz writes: It is very important to identify which type of body. Resurrection implies the bodies we now own will be regenerated. Resurrection does not equate to the realization of something new that did not exist prior. Bringing forth something that never existed prior is an act of creation, not resurrection. I don't see how my post differed from yours. The word resurrection itself talks about the rising of a physical body. We agree that it will be regenerated and physical. For this conversation at least. Whether we have the same height and eye color, weight, age, etc. is, as the priest says, nonsense questions. There is no way to answer them except by guesswork. My mama used to have a theory that all bodies will be 33 years of age as Jesus was at the time of His death. Like I said, I am not going to post guesses. I do believe that I read somewhere that Aquinas or another doctor says we will have our own bodies. If they are glorified, who can say in what way they will resemble how we appear now?
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Grizz writes: The point of this post is nothing more than to get people to think critically about their beliefs. Right, and with most old beliefs the apologetics are there to help us do that critical thinking.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
iceage:
That is given the above definition of soul what about someone that never develops a human will, intellect (or mind), and imagination (or memory)? Or what if the personality changes as the result of injury. They call us members of EVC! Seriously... God is ultimately responsible for the whole mess. If He gave us will, or took it away in the cases you provided, by the shear immplications of his sovereignty... Then it's His. We would have to rely purely on faith that he is good... unless... ...He actually demonstrated His willingness to take the whole world's sin upon Himself and pay the piper for us.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: ...He actually demonstrated His willingness to take the whole world's sin upon Himself and pay the piper for us. Since He is the piper, that concept is utterly nonsensical.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
Since He is the piper, that concept is utterly nonsensical. No... just means He is dead serious about Justice and sin. Wants us to know that sin really is sinful and hurts people, and that He really is just. He isn't kidding around. He means it. And the concepts manifest themselves into real world and physical realites by His appearence and passion. So He proved that He is both Just, and merciful. No need to believe blindly. He came in the flesh...
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The first group of questions are easy:
- When we receive our ticket to the resurrection will we be exhumed with the body we expired with or the one that existed during our most prime and fit period? - Do beer bellies, saggy breasts, and love handles still exist after the resurrection? - If you were deaf for your whole life will you be able to hear and if so will you understand language? - Do the blind get to bring their guide dogs along? - Will the colorblind suddenly see in color? - Do people get to keep their tattoos? - Do women get to keep the breast implants they died with? If not what size breasts will they be given? - What will happen to the Health Channels 900 pound man? Will he still be 900 pounds when he is resurrected and will there be a dolly available to move him around? Or perhaps he will be shrunk to a much more manageable size? If so what body size will he be given? Who knows? Those are all things we can guess about but honestly, no one knows the answers.
So for those who hold the belief in resurrection how would you respond to this paradox? Why is the flesh derided as worldly and evil in this life but will be glorified and of prime importance in the afterlife? That too is easy. It's pretty silly to deride the flesh as worldly and evil in this life. As to the afterlife, who knows? We will likely find the answers in that afterlife, but certainly not before. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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