Ticket to the Resurrection

Hi Grizz,Heavy stuff here. I read through the Bible a couple of times before my tenth birthday. Had no TV in the 40's, and no other books in the house. I was raised by my grandparents and they were not into church, so I would catch rides to church. During August revival the preacher preached about heaven and hell and all a person had to do to go to heaven was to be born again. I went home went to bed and sleep, but later on in the night I woke up and remembering what the preacher had said I said Lord I don't want to go to Hell. The preacher said if I would trust You to save me and give me eternal life You would do it. So I claim that promise of eternal life. From that moment on I could read the Bible and it came alive to me as I could understand things in it that I had never been able to understand before.I found out later that at that moment the Spirit of God came and sealed my spirit until the day of redemption. Now as to how I know I have a spirit.

quote:

---

Gene 1:26 (KJV) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

---

Man is made in the image and likeness of God.God the Father=all knowledge (mind).
God the Son=physical body.
God the Holy Spirit=spirit. We are told to love the Lord with all our physical being, all our spiritual being and all our mind.Man is the only creature that is made in the image and likeness of God. So as to that earlier question about animals having souls the answer is no.Until the first man ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil he did not know that he was naked. So until a person reaches a mental capacity to know good from evil they are not accountable for their sins.As to the memory of things, man will remember. The person that dies without trusting Christ for saving grace will remember every sermon, every line they read, every opportunity they had to believe in and trust God, forever.The born again child of the King, will remember things until after the Great White Throne judgment. This is where you and I will meet if you do not trust Christ as your personal saviour. At that moment I will wish I had been able to explain to you better the things we are talking about. It will tear me up and I will shed tears as you are cast into the lake of fire. Then God will wipe away all tears and bad memories as heaven would not be heaven knowing you were in the lake of fire.

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Reason by fear and conversion with the self-centric motive to save the self - how inspiring. No God was made small and conceivable to men minds so they made God in the image of man - a warrior king - a primate.Blasphemy, they made a monkey of God! for their own purpose.Xenophanes a 5th century BC Greek philosopher identified this proclivity of humans of anthropomorphizing God and claimed this: Insightful for its time and relevant today - this passage is scripture. This is nice thought I would like to believe in it. But the data suggests strongly otherwise. Injury and disease will take memories and personality. The things we call soul are functions of the brain. Ad hoc pop theology.Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Hi ICANT,I don't want to go too far off topic here but the reading of Gensis from the original Hebrew really does not translate to English that well, and the extant Hebrew verse does not assign a pluralilty for the deity. If anything, it would have been heresy, as 'God is one'. Instead, the pronoun used to describe the deity, —, does not translate to English as 'our' - In Hebrew it was used in the context of addressing someone in authority, or of importance. The word 'our' is simply the best translation to English - it has no direct translation."Then God said, Let us make man in our image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."Also, if the author wanted to convey plurailty for a deity he would further have stated :"In the image of God they created him...male and female they created him." Divine Revelation is your source for information on the Soul. How do we go from Divine Revelation to making statements such as 'The soul is created at the moment of conception?'The questions I posed earlier remain unanswered. What happens to the 50% of souls that are spontaneously aborted after conception? These souls have no experience or basis in corporeal existence. Will they get a body at the Resurrection? What memories will be implanted in them? How can essence precede experience?As far as Animals not having souls, If God is omnipotent he could create a soul to be placed in any being he chose. Why did he chose our species over another? It seems quite arbitrary.Also, it is stated that the soul is the source for our emotions, intellect, and knowledge of God. If God implanted a Soul into a Gorilla would it suddenly be writing Shakespeare?We are told God created beings with souls in order to worship and love him. My question is why stop with Man? The more the merrier.

I do not understand why people cannot understand the trinity.
God is one manifest in three different ways.
God the Father is all knowledge. We don't see or feel Him.
God the Son appeared in a flesh body on earth. He was seen by man.
God the Spirit. Cannot be seen but He sure can be felt.Do you have a problem with man being a dual being?
A flesh body, and a Mind. If yes.
You do have a problem with man being a spiritual being.
But remember God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul. He did not breath life into any other creature.Jesus gave the Church a job to do. Why was the Church to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Why did Jesus say I and my Father are one? Why did Jesus say He had to go before the Spirit cameThey are three different manifstations of the one being God.Now if you believe you evolved from some single cell life form then you have a problem with a spirit part in man. Thus your demanding that all animals have a spirit or soul. At conception there is human life, where there is human life there is a soul. I thought I answered this part in my previous message. That a human that has not reached the point they know good from evil their sin is not accounted to them. Everyone of them will go to heaven. Maybe that is God's way of outdoing Satan. They will get a spiritual body at the Resurrection. What memories do they need?If by essence you mean.. Essence - WikipediaIf this is what you are refering to I can understand why you might have a problem with their soul going to heaven as they would not have one as they had not gained one.It does not work that way as you do not gain your spirit or soul you have it at conception. I agree God could have done anything He wanted to and He could still do anything He wants too.It just happens that God chose to make man a special creation in His Image and Likeness. And then gave us the option of believing in Him or not believing in Him.If He had so desired He could have made us like robots and we would serve Him and do His every biding. But that is not what He wanted, He wanted us to choose to serve Him just because He is God. I don't know who stated that. It sure does not agree with what I have been taught and come to believe.Emotions are physical and come from the natural man.
Intellect, comes from our mind. It is determined by what we put into it like a computer. You put garbage in you will get garbage out.
Knowledge of God comes by the hearing of the Word.God implanting a soul in a Gorilla would not make the Gorilla capable of writing Shakespheare. If He gave the Gorilla a mind capable of writing Shakespheare the possibility would exist. But out of all the people ever born there was only one Shakespheare. So I would not bet on the Gorilla. So God did not agree with you.

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ICANT,The fact is, the particular interpretation of the Hebrew to English translation for the word in question was chosen for the very reason that it supported the Christian concept of the Trinity. Judaic authors would never have stated that God is more than one entity - it would be blasphemy. The Christian orthodoxy agreed to use the word 'our'.The translation is best understood as a masculine-deity pronoun for He. It is very similar to the context-usage of the German words Deine/Eine...one is used when addressing an authority figure, one for the every day Joe. The pronoun in Hebrew is reserved only for addressing authority figures. As I mentioned, the author does not continue with: "They created man in their image".Anyways, this is going off topic so I will let you have the last word on this as I am sure you will respond. Again, I was not debating whether or not the soul exists, but rather questioning the specific contexts and stories we frame around the belief in the soul. I am not demanding anything really, and I have not stated my position(yet). How does a spiritual body differ from a Soul? Well, for starters I would think these inexperienced souls would want to know who and what they are. As the souls in question have not yet had any experiences, cognition, or memories, I would assume they would need some help with getting their faculties up to speed with all the other souls that have arrived from the corporeal world. I also would think they would need to know how to talk and communicate, as I am sure they will want to talk to other resurrected bodies or ask God what they are doing there and how they got there. This would probably be a good point to state what my views are(for what it's worth); this way you can have a chance to pick apart my views, as I have yours.I would say yes, I have been influenced quite a bit by Existentialist thought, as well as Process Philosophy. The two most influential works I have read are Sartre's "Being and Nothingness", where he defines consciousness as a transcendent property of the corporeal, and Alfred North Whitehead's "Process and Reality."I believe essence must spring from Existence, and that Existence itself is ontologically prior to all categories that we wish to place upon anything that might exist. I also hold the somewhat unorthodox position that consciousness is as fundamental to nature as gravity or electromagnetism. As with all other phenomenon, however, it is contingent on corporeal substance for it's expression.So in that sense I would say I am a dualist, but I have trouble with the idea of a soul as something unique to an individual. Also, this is not to be confused with stating that consciousness springs forth from a supernatural agent. Rather, for me it is simply a fundamental property of existence.I do not see our 'selves' or personality as something that ”is’, but rather something that is 'becoming.' Our thoughts, feelings, and sensations are constantly in the process of flux; our sensations, memories, or thoughts, even our physical bodies, are in a steady stream of change that is never at rest.So I do not see how I could say I have a soul or something that just ”Is’,and never changes, as the thing it manifests is constantly in the process of change. Every time you try to pin that substance down and define what it is, it changes again. There is nothing we can put our finger on to say ”This is me !’ , 'here I am !', for by the time we said that we have changed both physically and mentally.The best description for what I am would be a center of physical and mental activity which is never the same from one minute to the next, and will never be the same again. So other than saying I am a work in progress, and the next moment I will be something new, what can I say? For me, the only thing static about us is awareness itself. I am therefore inclined to think of consciousness as fundamental.With regards to this post, I have difficulties with the notion of a soul that exists as a potentiality in the womb. We must have experience and awareness before we can have an essence. I also have trouble with the notion of an afterlife where our personality survives physical death, as our personalities are contingent upon physical existence and causality. Our personality is a result of our accumulated thoughts, experiences, and memories - these things are housed within the physical brain. I do not believe I would retain all these physical attributes and memories in an afterlife, if one indeed were to exist.On the question of God, I remain largely agnostic ,though I do lean a bit towards Deism. I simply believe we have no way of knowing the properties or attributes of such a being.I will respond to the rest of your post in a bit.

The problem I have always had with this view is, if God is spirit and non-corporeal, and he wanted to make a being in his image and likeness, then we too would be nothing but spirit and non-corporeal.In this context, physical existence has no purpose or goal, it is redundant. If God is omnipotent and omniscient then why would he choose to create a redundancy? He could have easily created us as etheral, spiritual beings in his true image.

That is kind of looking at it backwards. The problem is this: the Bible says God made man in His image and likeness. God has no body, someone has to figure out what was therefore made in God's image. So, they say the spirit was.God didn't want to make another God, He wanted to give a human something 'extra' so to speak, and that is, something other creatures did not have.I will put my usual disclaimer...you don't have to believe any of this, but at least you can know that there are ways to understand or imagie most of what looks like a huge problem.I mean, if I took a photo, it would be an image and likeness, but obviously not a flesh and bones body.

Why would they everything was created by God the Son. A soul is a spirit and cannot be seen.A spiritual body will be visible and recognizable. It will be able to consume food but will not be obstructed by material things. We don't know exactly what we shall be like but we do know: Peter recognized Moses and Elias (Elijah) when they appeared on the mount of transfiguration. Since no one had a photo of either that was a pretty good display of the fact that we will know as we are known. This is the problem. So you are saying the soul or spirit is the same as our personality that we obtain over our lifetime.Sorry Grizz that is what you become because of the choices you make in your lifetime and the accumulation of facts and fiction. You make choices almost constantly that affect your daily walk in life this started when you first knew good from evil. Since that time you have made decisions that have brought you to where you are today with your belief system. What you do between now and the time you die will determine where you will spend eternity. This is the most important decision you will ever make and that is what to do with Jesus. Accept Him and receive eternal life or reject Him and spend eternity in the lake of fire. The soul has only one of two positions and only one of these can change. The soul is condemned or it can be changed by being born again. Why not your mind is not going to die, only your physical body.Your spirit is eternal, your mind is eternal, and your new body at the resurrection will be eternal. Grizz you are not listening or not hearing God did not create a redundancy. You keep harping on the word our in Genesis and ignoring all the other scripture references I gave you concerning God, Elohim. God is one being manifested in three different ways and you are composed in the same manner.
You have a mind, (knowledge, intelligence).0 Can you see it? No
You have a spirit a part of you that can never die. Can you see it? No
You have a physical body. Can you see it? yesYou have God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and when all three of these are united as one you have I AM. BTW You are free to believe anything you want to believe but the only thing that will change your final destiny is trusting in Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God to grant you a pardon and give you eternal life.

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

that's why your friend was not able to give you a reasonable answer.

quote:

---

You said:
The flesh is derided as worldly and corrupt and the spirit exalted. Inexplicably the flesh somehow gets elevated to a status of prominence and priority in the afterlife - it is 'glorified'. Bodily resurrection seems to be contrary to the idea of an eternal and detachable soul and devoid of any real meaning when considered in the context of an eternal spiritual existence.

---

Here is a good outline as to what catholicism is.
The Whore of BabylonAnd here is an outline of where in paganism the RCC gets her paganism on this subject:

quote:

---

What happens to us after we die? Where are our loved ones who have passed on? Will we ever see them again?

​

Everyone needs to know that life has purpose, that death isn't the permanent end of our existence. The most common Christian belief regarding the afterlife is that people possess souls and at death their consciousness in the form of that soul departs from the body and heads for heaven or hell.

​

Most religions teach some form of life after death. The ancient Egyptians, for example, practiced elaborate ceremonies to prepare the pharaohs for their next life. They constructed massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the deceased were assumed to need in the hereafter.

​

In some civilizations when a ruler died others who had accompanied and served him in his life were put to death so they could immediately serve him in the afterlife. Wives and other relatives, servants, sometimes even household pets joined him in death and a supposed entrance into a new life on the other side.

​

Belief in the immortality of the soul was an important aspect of ancient thought espoused by the Greek philosophers Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Plato, in Phaedo, presents Socrates' explanation of death: "Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and body is released from the soul, what is this but death?" (Five Great Dialogues, Classics Club edition, 1969, p. 93).

​

Socrates explained that the immortal soul, once freed from the body, is rewarded according to good deeds or punished for evil. Socrates lived ca. 470-399 B.C., so his view of the soul predated Christianity.

​

Plato (ca. 428-348 B.C.) saw man's existence as divided into the material and spiritual, or "Ideal," realms. "Plato reasoned that the soul, being eternal, must have had a pre-existence in the ideal world where it learned about the eternal Ideals" (William S. Sahakian, History of Philosophy, 1968, p. 56). In Plato's reasoning, man is meant to attain goodness and return to the Ideal through the experiences of the transmigration of the soul. Thus secular philosophies sanction the idea of the immortal soul, even though the Bible does not. Believe it or not, God's Word teaches something entirely different.

---

What Does the Bible Say About the "Immortal Soul"? | United Church of GodThey also eat their god (Mithraism), yuck! These are men with the power to change a biscuit into their god. Oh, well!In other words, talking to a catholic, you get the confusion you experienced. Sorry you were told your question is silly and without merit. It is, most emphatically, not.I hope you take the time to search what it really is and find the answers from what the bible really teaches on this subject. You will not find it in catholicism. In fact, there are many protestant churches who also teach the same thing. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.The equation is simple. I wish I had the time now to present it to you from scripture. Perhaps at a later date and a thread titled what really happens to you when you die and what the resurrection really is, according to the bible not any particular ism. You will be amazed how the confusion you already see perpetuates itself without any apparent effort.God bless you for your curiosity. May HE help you find the answers you want, whether you believe them or not.Edited by DorfMan, : change a word

quote:

---

The soul is believed to be immortal, and more importantly, created directly by God rather than thru the workings of biology

---

If that is true, you need to quote scripture that says the soul is immortal. Rather, scripture says that God only has immortality.1 Timothy 1:17 states, “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever.”"Who (God) only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no one has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amein." 1 Tim. 6:16

quote:

---

My point is to get people to pick apart their own beliefs and think about them.

​

If the soul contains the desire for truth and purpose, and the body is just mechanical, then transplanting the Soul of an Athiest into the body of a Jehovah's Wittnes would create someone who goes around knocking on doors for no apparent reason.

---

This is wonderfully funny. Thanks, my first good chuckle of the day.
Blessings to you.

Hi Anastasia,The conclusion we must reach then is that we really are not created in the image and likeness of God, as is stated in Genesis; we are given only a select number of features which belong to the creator. Essentially, we are a watered-down copy of the original.

Why is an image and likeness an exact replica, in your mind?
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

John 3:16
1 John 5: 11-12There's two.And no, they don't exactly say 'the soul is immortal'. But you see, everyone at one time thought the soul gave life to the body, and there was no way to speak of 'eternal life' without 'life' as in , the soul.

Hi,It doesn't have to be, but then again why not?. The passage can mean anything you want it to mean depending on your preferences, and how badly one wants to mold scriptures to a particular world view or belief. After all, there are theologians who believe the passage implies we actually were made in God's true image and are indeed Gods ourselves(Mormons and Word-Faith theologians for instance). The most popular Christian interpretation of this passage is we are simply cheaper imitations of an original blueprint.Like most passages in scripture, this quote can mean anything one wishes to believe. Who holds the truth? Just roll the dice, there really is no way to know for sure. If one subscribes to Divine Revelation, then one is left to guess, as God never really spelled out all his attributes. We are given precise instructions on how to sacrifice a goat, or build a temple, or attack a city, but unfortunately the really juicy questions most people care about are left wrapped in ambiguity or metaphor. We are left with no other option but to make inferences and best guesses.The fact is, you can pick any view you wish and I am sure you can find select passages through scriptures that one can mold to support the claim.